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Reloading 9mm and .45 acp

3K views 40 replies 10 participants last post by  fatbob1945 
#1 ·
Since both .45acp and 9mm brass shrink when fired,does the pressure vary significantly when the bullet is set to saami specs? Oal.
 
#2 ·
When you use your resizing die, you're re-stretching/reforming your casings essentially back to normal factory size.

In the short, yes a smaller volume will produce a higher pressure at the same charge. But if your reloading and not using a sizing die, you shouldn't be reloading in the first place!
 
#3 ·
No,I use a four die set,I just cut to the chase in my post. You did answer my question though about pressure,and I figured that would be the result. I have found that very few of the cases stretch back to the original length even after resizing,and have measured different brands of factory rounds and found the lengths vary from different brands. For plinking I have been using mostly Winchester white boxes.
 
#6 ·
Mine do. The reason being because the brass expands in the chamber when fired to a larger diameter,so if case gets fatter,length lessens. I have found this to be so in most automatics. Blew my away the first time I saw it happen,unlike rifle brass that mostly gets longer in my observations. Thanks for the reply!
 
#5 ·
9's and 45s shrink when they are fired, mostly because the casehead gets compressed.
Not a whole lot though.

Case length does not affect pressure for 9s and 45s as long as the oal is the same. It only affect the amount of bullet in de case.
 
#7 ·
Lets say you have a case that is somewhere around the 0.754 and you trimmed it back to 0.749. You fire the case and it shrunk back a couple thousandths and you resize it and it gained back a thousandth or whatever. We see case lengths have changed but our OAL has never changed. The case pressure (excluding the slight neck tension variances) has not changed because you load by OAL and not case length. Three of several reasons why case length is important is proper neck tension, consistent crimp, and headspacing. Getting these big 3 will go a long way in managing case pressures when staying in the confines of the reloading manuals.
 
#8 ·
Seems to me that by keeping the oal the same,the variance of the case lengths in the shell holder will cause a variance in the depth the bullet is set and will cause a variance in pressure. Don't know and really not worried about it,just thinking. Thanks for the reply and I'm very careful about oal,so it functions and feeds properly.
 
#12 ·
This is new to me. I've never heard of cases shrinking. I am not arguing the point - just that I've never heard this before.

I know that bottle neck cases tend to 'grow' on firing. That is a matter of the case reacting to the internal pressure and heat, and the brass flowing slightly forward in conjunction with the bullet pulling on the case where the bullet is crimped. Over time, so much brass can move forward as to thin the case walls at the web of the case - a place where case separation occurs.
 
#14 ·
Bottle neck do grow on firing. If you neck size that is the reason the case's have to be full length sized now and then. But growing in the neck, as in needing trimming is largely caused by pulling the neck back over the expander when sizing. I've done that for years and just seemed like it had to happen, no big thing. Well doesn't have to. I got a couple Lee Collet dies and go case stretch at all. But every few time's the shoulder need's to be set back a bit to get the case to chamber. Then the necks will stretch.
 
#13 ·
It may vary with the handgun,but both the 9mm and .45acps that I have checked do. It's caused by the straight walled cartridge case fire forming(expanding)to the dimension of the individual firearm. It gets fatter,so it gets shorter. Thanks for the reply. Interesting subject. I was trying to talk myself into a new toy--ie a case trimmer. As I see it now,you don't really need one for most handguns unless you are looking for uniformity in case length for competitive reasons. Sizer die should put you within SAAMI tolerance.
 
#15 ·
Yes sir. I'm fixing to be looking at a similar situation on a British .303. The military Chambers vary so much that as often as not,brass fired from another 03 won't chamber in my different 03. The brass fire forms to the individual rifle. I bought some used brass and it looks it looks like I will have to purchase a Redding type S die to make it work. Full length resizer die doesn't work, I'll have to bump the shoulder back with the Redding type S full body die to make it chamber. .303 British is kind of a pain,but fun. The one Redding die I need is about $50.
 
#17 ·
With that .303 British - you are entering another entirely different realm of reloading. The .303 is a cartridge that can be reloaded, but requires it's own set of rules.

If you try to Full Length Size fired .303 cases - I can just about promise you only get maybe 2 or 3 reloads from your cases before they are either ready to toss into the recycle bin or will have case head separation on firing. Since most folks only own ONE .303 caliber rifle, reloading with a Neck Size only die is not a problem. If you are reloading for a group of buddies (who all also shoot .303s) then the reloading process becomes more complicated.

Save that $50 on the Redding die - and just pick up a $25 RCBS Neck Sizer die (and retire the Full Length sizing die that came with the original set). Your cases will thank you for it. The only purpose the FL die will ever serve is if you scarf-up some brass someone else fired, and in that case you will want to **barely** resize that brass until it will **just** easily chamber in YOUR rifle. Then, just neck size it and you are ready to go.
 
#16 ·
If a FL sizer does not work I don't see how a Redding type S will, the only difference is the S type has a bushing to control neck tension. The rest of the sizing works the same as any other FL die.
Don't you mean a shoulder bump die or something? (Just trying to keep you from buying something that won't help)
 
#18 ·
Yes,not sure about it and intend to call Redding before I spend that much on the die. I have a Lee 4 die set for .303 and some brass works and some doesn't. Have read some about .303 reloads and the full body Redding says it moves the shoulder back. It's kind of a weird round and rifle. In the process of glass bedding it now (first attempt) and then will load. Basically I've learned that alien .303 brass is usually not a good buy. Graf & Son's sells some once fired PRIV brass I have heard good things about but I haven't tried it.
 
#19 ·
I don't follow the original question. The bullet to WHAT SAAMI spec?
For the bullet (that would cover a range of about 0.006" in diameter) and not much of anything else is covered by SAAMI or for the CARTRIDGE (and not the bullet)?
If the cartridge, then, if the cartridge meets SAAMI specs and is fired in a SAAMI-compliant chamber, any problem is not with the cartridge but with the load used.
All I know after 40 years is that, for every bullet I have loaded, I loaded either using the starting load for a lead bullet or the start load for a jacketed bullet and that has always worked, no matter WHAT COL I had to use.
Seems to me that almost all these questions are really attempts to "formularize" reloading and AVOID the simple safety task of starting at the start load.
1) find the COL range, using inert dummy rounds, that feed and chamber
2) Using a COL in that range, start at the start load (I prefer to load long for accuracy). If loading for multiple guns, check the inert dummy rounds in all your guns.
3) When possible, check multiple sources and start at the lowest start load. This can be critical as all components have an effect, including lot number of powder, and you have no idea how your mix compares to the mix of components in any manual.
This has worked for well over 125 years.
 
#20 ·
I don't follow the original question. The bullet to WHAT SAAMI spec?
For the bullet (that would cover a range of about 0.006" in diameter) and not much of anything else is covered by SAAMI or for the CARTRIDGE (and not the bullet)?
If the cartridge, then, if the cartridge meets SAAMI specs and is fired in a SAAMI-compliant chamber, any problem is not with the cartridge but with the load used.
All I know after 40 years is that, for every bullet I have loaded, I loaded either using the starting load for a lead bullet or the start load for a jacketed bullet and that has always worked, no matter WHAT COL I had to use.
Seems to me that almost all these questions are really attempts to "formularize" reloading and AVOID the simple safety task of starting at the start load.
1) find the COL range, using inert dummy rounds, that feed and chamber
2) Using a COL in that range, start at the start load (I prefer to load long for accuracy). If loading for multiple guns, check the inert dummy rounds in all your guns.
3) When possible, check multiple sources and start at the lowest start load. This can be critical as all components have an effect, including lot number of powder, and you have no idea how your mix compares to the mix of components in any manual.
This has worked for well over 125 years.
The specs I refer to are from the Lee modern reloading manual.
 
#22 · (Edited)
So, the cartridge?
Thanks.
If you want to see the SAAMI specs, look up
SAAMI Z299.3 - 2015 205, or newer.
I'm currently loading .45acp and 9mm. New to 9's...wife just bought one. I use the Lee manual and haven't had any problems with their recipes and specs. The question about pressure changing with different case lengths was just theoretical and what I was thinking about was that if I trim all my cases to an equal length, within specs,it would produce a more uniform and consistent round since the volume would be the same with each round,hence same pressure,same charge. It was just a thought. Another thought... does anyone have any experience with the fairly new hodgdon CFE? The reviews look good, so I got a pound. Recipes leave a few blanks and since it is new, it's not listed in my manual. Wanting to load some plated fmj round nose 115 bullets,but the only recipe I have found is for the GDHP's. Probably will call hodgdon. Just wanting some cheep stuff for the range. I double check myself on everything B4 I load. Seems that the same 115gr bullet would use the same charge,but I'll call hodgdon to make sure. The powder was on sale.
 
#23 ·
>The question about pressure changing with different case lengths was just theoretical and what I was thinking about was that if I trim all my cases to an equal length, within specs,it would produce a more uniform and consistent round since the volume would be the same with each round,hence same pressure,same charge.

1) Case length is not important and doesn't effect pressure. COL, distance from the bullet's meplat to the case head does effect pressure.
First, make up two inert dummy rounds and find the COL that feeds and chambers in your gun and use THAT COL for load work-up. Start at the start load and work up.
2) 9x19 and .45 ACP both head space on the case mouth. If you trim the cases, that already are shorter than optimum, you are just increasing the "head space" slop that the case already has and nothing destroys accuracy faster than increasing "head space" slop. Don't TRIM. Follow the manual.
One thing to note with ALL manuals that I have read, including Richard Lee's is that the reloading is aimed at bottleneck rifle case and not straightwall pistol cases and REALLY not to cases that head space on the case mouth where trimming just increases that distance from case mouth to the head space "ledge" in the barrel—which has been shown almost every time to hurt accuracy and NEVER to improve it.
As Richard Lee writes in the #2 manual, "Lee makes a complete selection of case trimmers for all handgun calibers. This is a product I resisted producing, because it did not pass my test. I always ask myself, "Would I buy one?" I would not buy a case trimmer for handgun cartridges for normal use. I never shoot maximum loads in my handguns and I never shoot magnum calibers. My cases wear out before they need trimming."
Again, all his talk about trimming and crimping is for bottleneck cases (look at the pictures he uses) and NOT straightwall pistol case. You will find that straightwall cases DO NOT grow, as there is no shoulder to stretch the case, and the case will tend to be the same or slightly shorter after several shooting/sizing sessions. In fact, I have known Bullseye shooters who only fired a case three times in matches before retiring it to the "practice and lose" pile just for that reason—the game calls for accuracy and the cases shrank and groups increased.
Right now, 9x19 is being used for service matches in Bullseye and there, many sort their sized cases and only use the longest ones in matches.
I can tell you right now, after spending several decades shooting .357 Mag and .44 Mag, not ONE of those cases grew over time or needed to be trimmed.
Then, remember the talk about the "need" for consistent crimp?
Well,
1) taper crimps don't need that and the taper crimp is really just to remove any case mouth flare you used as part of the case expansion step (the case tension holds the bullet and NOT the crimp—just look at a factory .45 Auto or 9x19 cartridge and you'll see NO discernible crimp)
and
2) they are talking about rifles capable of shooting 1MOA or smaller groups, where the consistency of the trim/crimp MIGHT shrink the group by 0.1MOA at most. This is so small, compared to the 8-30 MOA your 9x19 and .45 will probably give you, that you will never see it (1 MOA at 25 yards is a group center-to-center of about 0.25"—lots of luck getting that group).
I tried with .38 Spl, .357 Mag, and .44 Mag to see if trimming made any difference and it DID NOT make any difference. Neither does sorting cases by head stamp. In fact, in every case, the average group size was smaller and the std. dev. was smaller for the untrimmed and/or mixed cases, but well within the null hypothesis that the data sets came from the same overall set.
You have to remember with handguns, you are NOT shooting at or past 100 yards and you aren't shooting a 1 MOA gun. I can get groups with poorly cast lead bullets that are wrinkled (but the base is filled out completely) that are as good as "perfectly" cast bullets out to 50 yards. I would probably see some effect out at 100 yards, but I have very seldom fired a straightwall pistol cartridge at that distance.
Just step back and first, follow the basic directions for sizing, expanding, seating, and crimping before you worry about anything else. Learn first and then worry about any small details.
 
#24 ·
>Recipes leave a few blanks and since it is new, it's not listed in my manual. Wanting to load some plated fmj round nose 115 bullets,but the only recipe I have found is for the GDHP's.

GoldDots are plated.
Given that, you don't need specific load data for a bullet, just load data for that type of bullet.
Common bullets types that will have different loading data are:
1) jacketed
2) cast/swaged lead and plated
3) frangible
4) monolithic (all copper)
Like all plated bullets, you start at the lead bullet start load for that weight of bullet or, if the manufacturer says it is OK, you can use the jacketed start load and work up to mid-range jacketed.
You don't need specific data for any bullet as your mix of components is not the same as in any manual so you have to work up the load any way. If specific data was needed for bullets, you wouldn't have most of the bullets that are out there. You just need data for that weight of bullet and a safe start load.
If you are a new reloader, again, you should be looking in your manuals and finding bullets/powders that they used to make initial loading easier and not going off onto plated bullets and brand new powders—save that after you have about 6 months of reloading experience.
 
#26 · (Edited by Moderator)
>Recipes leave a few blanks and since it is new, it's not listed in my manual. Wanting to load some plated fmj round nose 115 bullets,but the only recipe I have found is for the GDHP's.

GoldDots are plated.
Given that, you don't need specific load data for a bullet, just load data for that type of bullet.
Common bullets types that will have different loading data are:
1) jacketed
2) cast/swaged lead and plated
3) frangible
4) monolithic (all copper)
Like all plated bullets, you start at the lead bullet start load for that weight of bullet or, if the manufacturer says it is OK, you can use the jacketed start load and work up to mid-range jacketed.
You don't need specific data for any bullet as your mix of components is not the same as in any manual so you have to work up the load any way. If specific data was needed for bullets, you wouldn't have most of the bullets that are out there. You just need data for that weight of bullet and a safe start load.
If you are a new reloader, again, you should be looking in your manuals and finding bullets/powders that they used to make initial loading easier and not going off onto plated bullets and brand new powders-save that after you have about 6 months of reloading experience.
I'm just loading 230 gr fmj's for range use. Thanks for the advice on case lengths. I have found that very seldom I am able to get the pistol cases back to factory lengths. I can get them close with multiple trips through the resizer,but rarely can stretch them out enough to get factory lengths.

>The question about pressure changing with different case lengths was just theoretical and what I was thinking about was that if I trim all my cases to an equal length, within specs,it would produce a more uniform and consistent round since the volume would be the same with each round,hence same pressure,same charge.

1) Case length is not important and doesn't effect pressure. COL, distance from the bullet's meplat to the case head does effect pressure.
First, make up two inert dummy rounds and find the COL that feeds and chambers in your gun and use THAT COL for load work-up. Start at the start load and work up.
2) 9x19 and .45 ACP both head space on the case mouth. If you trim the cases, that already are shorter than optimum, you are just increasing the "head space" slop that the case already has and nothing destroys accuracy faster than increasing "head space" slop. Don't TRIM. Follow the manual.
One thing to note with ALL manuals that I have read, including Richard Lee's is that the reloading is aimed at bottleneck rifle case and not straightwall pistol cases and REALLY not to cases that head space on the case mouth where trimming just increases that distance from case mouth to the head space "ledge" in the barrel-which has been shown almost every time to hurt accuracy and NEVER to improve it.
As Richard Lee writes in the #2 manual, "Lee makes a complete selection of case trimmers for all handgun calibers. This is a product I resisted producing, because it did not pass my test. I always ask myself, "Would I buy one?" I would not buy a case trimmer for handgun cartridges for normal use. I never shoot maximum loads in my handguns and I never shoot magnum calibers. My cases wear out before they need trimming."
Again, all his talk about trimming and crimping is for bottleneck cases (look at the pictures he uses) and NOT straightwall pistol case. You will find that straightwall cases DO NOT grow, as there is no shoulder to stretch the case, and the case will tend to be the same or slightly shorter after several shooting/sizing sessions. In fact, I have known Bullseye shooters who only fired a case three times in matches before retiring it to the "practice and lose" pile just for that reason-the game calls for accuracy and the cases shrank and groups increased.
Right now, 9x19 is being used for service matches in Bullseye and there, many sort their sized cases and only use the longest ones in matches.
I can tell you right now, after spending several decades shooting .357 Mag and .44 Mag, not ONE of those cases grew over time or needed to be trimmed.
Then, remember the talk about the "need" for consistent crimp?
Well,
1) taper crimps don't need that and the taper crimp is really just to remove any case mouth flare you used as part of the case expansion step (the case tension holds the bullet and NOT the crimp-just look at a factory .45 Auto or 9x19 cartridge and you'll see NO discernible crimp)
and
2) they are talking about rifles capable of shooting 1MOA or smaller groups, where the consistency of the trim/crimp MIGHT shrink the group by 0.1MOA at most. This is so small, compared to the 8-30 MOA your 9x19 and .45 will probably give you, that you will never see it (1 MOA at 25 yards is a group center-to-center of about 0.25"-lots of luck getting that group).
I tried with .38 Spl, .357 Mag, and .44 Mag to see if trimming made any difference and it DID NOT make any difference. Neither does sorting cases by head stamp. In fact, in every case, the average group size was smaller and the std. dev. was smaller for the untrimmed and/or mixed cases, but well within the null hypothesis that the data sets came from the same overall set.
You have to remember with handguns, you are NOT shooting at or past 100 yards and you aren't shooting a 1 MOA gun. I can get groups with poorly cast lead bullets that are wrinkled (but the base is filled out completely) that are as good as "perfectly" cast bullets out to 50 yards. I would probably see some effect out at 100 yards, but I have very seldom fired a straightwall pistol cartridge at that distance.
Just step back and first, follow the basic directions for sizing, expanding, seating, and crimping before you worry about anything else. Learn first and then worry about any small details.
Very helpful info. Thank you.
 
#27 ·
I usually just measure whatever factory ammo I have been using that functions well and try to build my loads the same. In this case I'm using Winchester white box 230gr fmj that are round nosed,and the reloads work well,even though I can't get the cases quite back to factory lengths. I do load to the same oal so they run through smooth,and use starting load specs. Also I am using the Hornady fmj(round nose)230 gr bullets with 5.7gr of unique. I have a bunch of unique that I got about 5 yrs ago that I'm trying to use up. It still looks and smells good and has been properly stored but I'm trying to get rid of it. It doesn't meter real great, so I have been weighing every charge,and it's a slow process. Thanks again!
 
#28 ·
Hmmm, I don't know anyone who trims straight wall pistol cases..9mm, .40 cal or .45 acp..I never have, and I don't ever intend to. You might be better served with another loading manual..I don't have the Lee, I do use a few Lyman books, a Speer and a couple of Hornady books...

Anyone else trim pistol brass? Am I missing something?

Your Unique should work well. I have a can of Win 296 that may have had 20 birthdays! I don't load .357's very often, but it's available when I do. Once you use all the Unique, try some Win 231...I like it a lot better than Unique.
 
#31 ·
I had to trim some new Starline 44 Rem. Magnum cases. They varied in length +-.015. They were going to be some pretty heavy loads and was concerned about varying the amount of roll crimp. Went ahead and trimmed all my 44 brass to the same length since I was set up for it. I have never trimmed auto pistol brass.
 
#33 · (Edited)
I don't either. It was just a thought. Loading some 9mm now, finished the .45. Was just kicking an ideal around. Thanks for the reply. I usually get my lengths by measuring a factory round that I like and works well in my weapon,and go from there. I use a Lee factory crimp die to post size and a very light crimp.
 
#32 ·
>I had to trim some new Starline 44 Rem. Magnum cases. They varied in length +-.015. They were going to be some pretty heavy loads and was concerned about varying the amount of roll crimp.

Been there, done that, and it didn't improve things at all.
Have fun trimming, but you should also test things.
 
#34 ·
Can anyone help me out on bullet diameter for a Ruger 9mm. I read and see different numbers and not sure which would be safe and get good results for plinking at targets. I see .355 and .356 in 115gr plated fmj's. The Ruger forum seems to recommend the .356 but would appreciate some feedback. Was at the store yesterday and saw a range of .355 to .357 in boolits. The .356 sounds logical in a plated boolit. I'm wanting to use 115gr plated fmj's.
 
#35 ·
Slug your barrel:
Your Ruger had better have a chamber/barrel that meets SAAMI specifications, just like all other 9x19 guns for sale in the US.
Lead and plated bullets should be at least 0.001" larger than actual bullet groove diameter.
Jacketed can vary a fait bit.
I use 0.355-0.357" jacketed bullets in 9x19 without issue and find best accuracy is often with 0.357". I use 0.355-0.357" jacketed bullets in 9x21 and .38 Super without issue.
I use 0.356-0.358" lead bullets, and find 0.357-0.358" bullets to be best.
during the last 8 years of bullet shortages, I found that I could almost always find 0.357" jacketed bullets to use in various person's 9x19 guns, after the other folks cleaned out all the 0.355" bullets.
There is no real "safety" issue as, with any reloading, you start at the START load and work up. Any time you start loading a new bullet, go back to the start load and work up the load.
Many folks have used 0.355" plated and complained about tumbling/keyholing (you can do a Google search and see how many times this has come up). After about twenty years of such complaints, some plated bullet companies have started to realize that, yes, their bullets should be sized like lead bullets and offer 0.356".
 
#36 · (Edited by Moderator)
Slug your barrel:
lead and plated bullets should be at least 0.001" larger than actual bullet groove diameter.
Jacketed can vary a fait bit.
Just to add to your confusion,
I use 0.355-0.357" jacketed bullets in 9x19 without issue and find best accuracy is often with 0.357".
I use 0.356-0.358" lead bullets, and find 0.357-0.358" bullets to be best.
during the last 8 years of bullet shortages, I found that I could almost always find 0.357" jacketed bullets to use in various person's 9x19 guns, after the other folks cleaned out all the 0.355" bullets.
There is no real "safety" issue as, with any reloading, you start at the START load and work up.
Many folks have used 0.355" plated and complained about tumbling/keyholing. After about twenty years of such complaints, some plated bullet companies have started to realize that, yes, their bullets should be sized like lead bullets and offer 0.356".
Thanks for your input. Since it's Mama's pistol,I would have to wait until she was gone to push something down the barrel, so don't plan on slugging it right now. She has been shooting the Winchester 115gr white box rounds and the function well. I may knock a bullet out and measure it. Right now,I am pretty inclined towards the .356. I have quite a bit of unigue and a couple of pounds of CFE on hand. Think I'll go with the CFE starting load and save the unique for .45 loads. The data in 9mm loads and unique are scarce and vary pretty drastically according to what you read and where. The unique works great in .45. Using 5.8gr under a 230 gr plated fmj from Lee's book. 5.7 is their starter. Thanks again! I just bumped one of the white box 115 plated fmj's apart,and it measures .356,so they work well in that pistol,and I'm going with that for now. May try some .357's further down the line.
 
#40 · (Edited)
Meister bullets offers a barrel slugging kit:
http://www.meisterbullets.com/slugyourbarrelsdetails.asp

I wish Meister just offered a simple handgun kit with three 0.320",fifteen 0.365", three 0.405", three 0.415", three 0.435", and fifteen 0.458" lead balls.
One can use #2 buckshot for .25, #000 buck for most 9mm and .38, 0.433" round balls for .44, and 0.457" round balls for .45.
You can check at range for black powder or shotgunners who reload and might be able to give/sell you a few.
Alternative, place a lead bullet in a vise and crush it to get a large enough diameter.
I tend to use two balls: one I only drive about 2" into the barrel and then drive it out and one I drive all the through the barrel to feel for problem areas.
 
#41 ·
I hadn't thought about the buckshot angle,although I had read and forgotten about it,thanks. I have a couple of hundred .45 acp cast boolits laying around that are no good. I bought them by mistake at a show,and they are made for a cowboy style revolver or something. When I started trying to load them,they are too irregular to hold the oal on my press,had to quit or readjust,about every round so decided not to use them. Live and learn. Plan to get a two cavity mold in .457 or .456,so might just melt them into ingots until I do. Can't remember exactly what the problem I was having with them,but started measuring them and they were very irregular. Going to a show next weekend and going to look maybe for some bullets,but will take a good digital caliper with me. At this point I am piddling with different bullet types and weights to see what works best,so just getting a hundred or minimum sized package at a time until I find my favorites. Just a hobby.
 
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