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Thinking About a Lever Gun, BUT...

3K views 34 replies 15 participants last post by  Dave_H 
#1 ·
I have always wanted a lever gun, ever since watching Chuck Connors when you couldn't tell it wasn't in color. I have pretty much decided to go on and do it. I am planning to pick up a Marlin 94 in the next couple of months. I thought about a .30-30, but the ammo is a little rich to just be chunking lead down range, so I decided on a pistol caliber. After looking at .357Mag, .44Mag, and .45LC, I put .357 on the back burner. It's a little wimpy compared to the other 2, but the price isn't bad. Both .44Mag and .45LC run about the same price, and that price splits the difference between .357Mag and .30-30. I can live with that. Now, as I looked at ballistics I was surprised. I really expected .44Mag to be more powerful, but it sure looks like .45LC delivers about 20% power than .44Mag. Does this sound right? I can't really tell because I couldn't find good ballistic data on .44Mag from a rifle. In fact, I only found one chart, and it is alleged to be rifle data, but there is no info on what gun, or even the barrel length on the chart. It doesn't really matter which one I use, but I do want the most bang for my buck. Thanks guys. Any insight will be helpful.
Dave
 
#2 ·
On paper, by the numbers, in a modern firearm the 45 Colt does shade the 44 Mag. There's two simple reasons. One is case capacity and the other is caliber. The first allows for more powder and the second for heavier bullets. Drive a heavier bullet faster or at the same velocity and the results are what you found regardless of the cartridge. In real life on targets and game the practical difference is insignificant. My thought is get the one the numbers tell you that you like best.
 
#3 ·
I'm in the same boat as Sharps. Price of ammo, or possibly the fact that you already have a pistol in that caliber.
 
#4 ·
The .45 will only beat out the .44 if you roll your own for the most part.

The .44 mag was designed to work in modern steel alloy frames and is factory loaded to higher pressures and velocities.

The venerable .45 Colt started out as a black powder round and factory loadings are held to lower pressure and velocity to prevent damage to older and reproduction pistols.

Most reloading manuals will list .45 Colt in three separate data tables, one for original and reproduction pistols, a second table for modern lever action rifles and a third section usually titled "Ruger Blackhawk and Thompson Center Contender only".
 
#5 · (Edited)
#26 ·
If you have enough money you can get a replica if they are not sold out.
https://truewestmagazine.com/the-riflemans-rifle-returns/

Edit:
Someone bought one of the ones from the show for a good price. :)
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/12137176_369-rifleman-lucas-mccain-44-40-winchester-rifle
You know, I would love to have that rifle, but I looked it and saw the price is about 3 times what I can pay, I didn't even bother to see if they were still available. Still, a very cool rifle. Unfortunately, I am far too old to find out a long lost, rich uncle just died ;) If the only Uncle I have left dies, we're all in trouble.

The .45 will only beat out the .44 if you roll your own for the most part.

The .44 mag was designed to work in modern steel alloy frames and is factory loaded to higher pressures and velocities.

The venerable .45 Colt started out as a black powder round and factory loadings are held to lower pressure and velocity to prevent damage to older and reproduction pistols.

Most reloading manuals will list .45 Colt in three separate data tables, one for original and reproduction pistols, a second table for modern lever action rifles and a third section usually titled "Ruger Blackhawk and Thompson Center Contender only".


That was my reasoning in the first place, and why I was surprised. Again, that's the problem with finding things like ballistic charts on-line. The .45LC chart was clearly noted as to rifle and bullet particulars, but said nothing about chamber pressure, so you can't tell how hot the load is.

That is what makes it a good deal for me. I don't own a 45 Colt handgun but I do own three 44 Rem Mags so owning that caliber in a lever gun makes good sense to me
Now you've done it! ;) You reminded me I didn't have an SAA! DRAT! Another gun to buy...:D

IMO, go 45LC. The reasons are: BIG cartridge is easy on the hands for loading into the rifle. Especially in cold weather. Because it is a larger cartridge you can manipulate in easier with leather gloves on (deerskin gloves work the best). You will appreciate that. If you have loaded a 45 LC and then went to load a .357.... you will want the 45LC back real quick. The large diameter of the 45LC is a hoot to shoot things with and... 45LC is "one of those cartridges" where a RNFP bullet is lethal and overly effective for S.D. Also, big and on steroids, bears hate them.

IMO, .357 is somewhat limited when compared to the 45LC. In fact, I would like to have a .357 in a lever action but it is pretty low on my list.

Highboy
Well, I was actually just considering .357Mag as a cheap plinking cartridge, a cut above a .22, but with no Marlin .357, the rifle would cost half again the price. Since I don't load myself, and full pressure .45LC runs about the same price as .45-70, I really am leaning toward .44Mag
 
#9 ·
You are not going to find a Marlin in 357. They haven't made them in over 5 years. I talked to a Marlin rep. at a gun show and he said they will resume making them sometime in the future.

I have one in 44 mag to go with my Ruger Blackhawk in 44mag. I went with the 44 mag because I can get 44 specials if I want reduced recoil but still shoot the hot 44 mags if I want to.

My son has a 45 Colt and it sounds like a 22 next to my 44 mag. I know they have hot loads for the 45 but they are very expensive.
 
#12 ·
IMO, go 45LC. The reasons are: BIG cartridge is easy on the hands for loading into the rifle. Especially in cold weather. Because it is a larger cartridge you can manipulate in easier with leather gloves on (deerskin gloves work the best). You will appreciate that. If you have loaded a 45 LC and then went to load a .357.... you will want the 45LC back real quick. The large diameter of the 45LC is a hoot to shoot things with and... 45LC is "one of those cartridges" where a RNFP bullet is lethal and overly effective for S.D. Also, big and on steroids, bears hate them.

IMO, .357 is somewhat limited when compared to the 45LC. In fact, I would like to have a .357 in a lever action but it is pretty low on my list.

Highboy
 
#15 ·
IMO, go 45LC. The reasons are: BIG cartridge is easy on the hands for loading into the rifle. Especially in cold weather. Because it is a larger cartridge you can manipulate in easier with leather gloves on (deerskin gloves work the best). You will appreciate that. If you have loaded a 45 LC and then went to load a .357.... you will want the 45LC back real quick. The large diameter of the 45LC is a hoot to shoot things with and... 45LC is "one of those cartridges" where a RNFP bullet is lethal and overly effective for S.D. Also, big and on steroids, bears hate them.

IMO, .357 is somewhat limited when compared to the 45LC. In fact, I would like to have a .357 in a lever action but it is pretty low on my list.

Highboy
I agree Highboy. .45 Colt is indeed the way to go. Unless you can find a lever action (Rossi?) in .454 Casull.
 
#18 ·
I have a Marlin .44 mag. I chose it over the .45 LC because I already had a pistol in .44 mag. Both the pistol, and carbine, in .44 mag. has a slight advantage over the .45.
 
#19 ·
I agree with all of the posts so far - but I differ slightly. I love the .45 Colt - GREAT caliber.

There is one problem as I see it. The rim of the .45 Colt is very small. In a revolver - that is of little concern because the revolver's ejector rod removes the spent case. In a lever action rifle there isn't much for the extractor to grab 'hold of.

I think Winchester had the same problem when Colt brought out the .45, and I seem to recall that the rim on the .45 was the main reason Winchester didn't offer their rifles in that caliber. I do believe that was the reason for the .44-40.
 
#21 ·
The 45 Colt rim IS quite small. That's why, back in the cowboy times, there was no 45 Colt lever gun. Rim was too small for the extractor to catch. See original cartridge on right.

Metal Brass Cylinder Steel Bronze


But back then the cases were "folded". What is now called a "balloon head". There was no way to really do anything about the small rim.

Look at the modern case on the left. SOLID head. And, notice, they have cut a nice extractor groove in it, just above the rim. And even with that groove, the case still has more metal around the powder charge than the originals did.

I don't think there would be a problem with a rifle chambered in 45. Hope not, anyway. I've got one.

Problem is, in my opinion, is folks trying to make it what it isn't. The 45 Colt is a fine round. 255 grain bullet at about 900 fps out of a 5" barrel. Probably do 1100 or more out of a 20" rifle. Shoot lengthwise through a horse.

But people always want MORE POWER (thank you, Tim Allen "argh argh argh argh argh"). They want to turn the fine old 45 Colt into a 44 Magnum.

If you want a 44 Magnum, buy a 44 Magnum. If you want a MORE POWERFUL 45 Colt, buy a 454 Casull, or a 45/70.
 
#22 ·
Sie

Sierra has a 300 Grain JSP that has a max. velocity of 1500 fps. Originally I thought low velocities too but when I saw that there are heavier bullet options for the 45LC lever guns I thought different. This means the rifle can be used for lighter and more affordable lower velocity bullets and at the same time pretty handy for a backwoods rifle.

AS far as the rim, modernized head design has eliminated ejection issues.

Good information on this thread. Iron sharpens iron.

Highboy
 
#23 · (Edited)
I turned down the old Marlin 44s when they were available for less than $400 and I was looking for something else. You always think what is available today will be there later.

I quit looking for a 44 lever last year for a different reason, twist rate. The current levers have a 1:38 twist which does mot handle bullets greater than 270 gr. The shells I would want for a woods gun are all over 300 gr which may not be stabilized by the 1:38 twist.

My Marlin 444 has a 1:20 twist and handles 335 gr Buffalo Bore well at 2025 fps at the muzzle.

If Marlin, Henry, Ross or other lever makers gets smart with the 1:20 twist, I will be on it like bears to honey.

I do own a Marlin .357 and with proper ammo is nearly in the 30-30 range. It is a nice little camp gun. Having rifle and pistol in the same caliber just makes sense.

I also have a Henry .22 LR with a Smith & Wesson 10 shot revolver, both allegedly for my wife.
 
#33 ·
What all will you be doing with it? Hunting is one thing; SD is another, and just throwing lead downrange is another.

I like my Marlin .357. It's a very satisfying gun to shoot. I shoot loads I've developed for it. Its great for putting holes in paper, but over here I don't hear much about people hunting with them. We primarily use them from 15 to 50 yards in competitions.

More power doesn't mean better accuracy.

Fun thing: One guy had just bought his Marlin in .44 mag. He didn't have home loads so was using factory .44 mag loads at the "break the stick" competition, where you shoot as fast as you can to break the horizontally hanging stick 25 yards downrange. He would fire a magizine full, shake the tingle out of his hand, load another magazine and go at it again. He finally broke it with one solid hit after the second or third magazine full. The .357's would hit it, but it might take two or three hits to finally break it.

In my club, we have regular competitions and the Marlin is the overall favorite. It ejects to the side so doesn't interfere with scopes or red dot sights, and almost everyone has scopes over here. Rossi and others eject out the top.

As said, Marlins in pistol caliber are getting scarce. Gun sales sites over here say that my Marlin has appreciated in value by 50-100% since I bought it new over five years ago.

I do have a Browning Lever Rifle in .243 that I enjoy. Magazines hold 4 rounds which makes it impractical for competitions. It would make a great hunting rifle.
 
#35 ·
What all will you be doing with it? Hunting is one thing; SD is another, and just throwing lead downrange is another.

I like my Marlin .357. It's a very satisfying gun to shoot. I shoot loads I've developed for it. Its great for putting holes in paper, but over here I don't hear much about people hunting with them. We primarily use them from 15 to 50 yards in competitions.

More power doesn't mean better accuracy.

Fun thing: One guy had just bought his Marlin in .44 mag. He didn't have home loads so was using factory .44 mag loads at the "break the stick" competition, where you shoot as fast as you can to break the horizontally hanging stick 25 yards downrange. He would fire a magazine full, shake the tingle out of his hand, load another magazine and go at it again. He finally broke it with one solid hit after the second or third magazine full. The .357's would hit it, but it might take two or three hits to finally break it.

In my club, we have regular competitions and the Marlin is the overall favorite. It ejects to the side so doesn't interfere with scopes or red dot sights, and almost everyone has scopes over here. Rossi and others eject out the top.

As said, Marlins in pistol caliber are getting scarce. Gun sales sites over here say that my Marlin has appreciated in value by 50-100% since I bought it new over five years ago.

I do have a Browning Lever Rifle in .243 that I enjoy. Magazines hold 4 rounds which makes it impractical for competitions. It would make a great hunting rifle.
This is going to be something of a multi-purpose gun. Mostly, it will be for targets and plinking, but I live out in the country, so I will probably do some varminting as well; coyotes, foxes, possums, maybe pigs, etc. My area is a little too densely populated to use my intermediate rifles, so I thought this might be a good option for that. I have pretty much ruled out .357 because the cheapest available gun is the Henry, at about half again the cost of the Marlin. I am planning on buying next month because of the increasing scarcity you mentioned.
 
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