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1905 Oesterr Waffenfabr-Ges Steyr

14K views 33 replies 7 participants last post by  Rothhammer1 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I have wanted a 9x56 Mannlicher since I was a kid, finally found one at Cabela's last month. I'm sure I paid to much for it...lol, but I got one, or so I thought. I did a chamber casting and got a little confused, then slugged the bore. the bore is..363, then I looked through my cartridge conversion book and cartridges of the world. the dimensions are a little off, mostly on the shoulder, it's .434. the closest thing I could find was 9.3x57 mauser, but the shoulder is supposed to be .428 and the casting is .434. All other specks are with in tolerance. the rifle has handling marks and about 70% blueing everything else looks good. took it to bits and did a through clean job, been thinking maybe a fireformed 8x56, or a 30-06 shell will tell me more, but I don't have any dies to expand the neck with and don't want to order the wrong ones. I do know that not all makers back then used standard reamers and that steyr did chamber some rifles in 93.x57. I would like to hunt with it, but don't know where to go from here. I took some pictures, and will try and post them. Btw, I am not new to old guns and obsolete brass and reload for all my guns. just kinda stuck on this one.
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I would like to know what all the numbers mean and value also, kinda for got that in my first post. thank you for your assistance.

also, its hard to see but the top of the barrel between the sight and barrel band say's " von Lengerke & Detmold inc. New York " I assume this is the importers.
 

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#3 ·
All Mannlicher/Schoenaur's are fabulous. I can't make out the proofs well enough to tell you anything. I need to get going but later I'll re-read your post more thoroughly and see if there's anything I can offer. I expect Marblekonus will see this and respond. He's pretty much the authority on here.
 
#6 · (Edited)
How you do that Mak? Fascinating to me. If I didn't know you better I'd think you were dabbling in black magic in addition to black powder....:D
The only mark on the picture Mak "fixed" that I know is that it was proofed in Vienna. That would be the "NVP" right in the middle of the picture. Are those all the stampings on the barrel near the breech? My 1903 M/S has a date code as did the previous '03 I owned and I don't recognize any of the numbers on your rifle as being similar. That doesn't mean they weren't different among the various M/S models.

From your post it doesn't appear this is your first time around the barn so, good!!!!!!!. Is .363 the bore or groove diameter? If it's groove diameter and you subtract .355 from it, the accepted 9mm bore dimension, that leaves .008. Divide that by two and you have rifling .004 deep, about right. If you have an 8 X 56 case it would be easy enough to fire form it, that is just blow out the neck as you don't have an expander button, I've done it successfully. Might take 2-3 times to get it fully formed but you can do it, especially if you anneal the neck first. One could probably use an 8 X 57 or 9 X 57 case just as easily if it fits the chamber in the first place. The -06 case you're going to have to have a way to neck it down then trim it til it fits the chamber then fire form it. 358 WCF dies should work to neck it down and set the shoulder as might 8 or 9 X 57 dies.

Once you get your brass fire formed and trimmed you can get by quite nicely neck sizing only and you could do that with any 9mm sizing die that allows the neck to be sized without squeezing down the shoulder and body. If you're interested I figured out a way to use a sizer/lubricator and a correct bullet sizing die to neck size only and you don't even need dies. Long story. I suspect it's entirely possible a 9 X 57 reamer was run into the chamber of your rifle to pick up a little more case capacity. How does the length of the cast match up? I know 1mm isn't much but it might show up. If it does appear to be the 9 X 57 I don't know that I'd worry about .006 difference in your cast and what COTW lists. That's only .003 a side. As much as I use, appreciate and thoroughly enjoy COTW, and I have some data published in it, they aren't always the most accurate source for European cartridges. CIP is much better. For the most part until the early to mid-1920's cartridges weren't actually "Normalized" in Germany & Austria. At least that's what I understand. Marble will no doubt have more accurate information in that regard. They, COTW, say to use .356 bullets but I don't know how they figure that if they haven't slugged the bore. It's probably close enough at low pressure loads.

As far as what it is, that doesn't matter if you can make the brass and you obviously have a bore slug to come up with a bullet. 9 X 56 M/S data should work fine in it. Jacketed bullets can be found or perhaps swaged down or bumped up in your loading press and there is a suitable cast mold available for it from Accurate Molds. If the bore is good and you cast I think I would seriously consider a good, gas checked, cast bullet.

All the M/S rifles, the '03, '05, '08 and '10 are purely delightful gems. From what I can see yours appears to be a very nice rifle and in a cartridge I'd love to work with some day. I have two 9 X 57's, an "R" and a rimless so it isn't as if I need another cartridge in that class...lol! I have to ask, can you tell if it's been re-blued and the stock refinished? It looks almost too good for a rifle that age. Cherish it, they aren't making them like that anymore.

How does the recoil lug mortise in the stock look? Reason I ask is on my 1903 it was pretty wollered out and I had to glass bed it to get it to shoot. As you can see the recoil lug is a tiny little thing when compared to a Mauser. Another little thing to be aware of, maybe, is the front sling stirrup screw can put a little bind on the barrel where it passes through the lug and have an effect on accuracy. On mine the lug and screw were relieved but the lug was rubbing on the wood at the bottom and back of the mortise and I had to relieve that a bit. If that happens on yours, and I don't know how common that is, just be careful, the wood is really thin there.

Value I can't help you, I've sworn off trying to help folks get an idea of the worth of their firearm.
 
#8 ·
Shaps, if you look at all the pic's, I took pic's all the way around the breach. the -15 and +15 had me puzzled, unless it was for a rebarrel job and that was indicating how much was missing from bolt face to action face. A lot of marks I haven't seen before and an importer I have never heard of either, granted their were a lot. I understand what you mean by bore and grove, and I did measurer the grove diameter I'm a little confused though. from what you say, the bullet should be a bore riding bullet and not touch the groves. in order to have a good gas seal it would have to be diameter wise at least .360 correct? a .308 barrel isn't reamed to .308 and then rifled, it's reamed to around .298 and then a button pulled through or .300 and then cut and lapped. I have some bore riding bullets that I shoot out of my 8.15x54R on them I had to figure out the bore size. I know every gun has its quirks, so help me out here. and thanks for the tip on the stock, I haven't looked to see what was what yet, my first rifle of this style, I figured may a pressure point on the stock like they used to do would work, but your right you need to have everything else bedded and not binding first. I was thinking cast bullets, but those Hawk bullets seem to have good reviews. I am going to hunt deer, elk, bear and later moose and caribou with it, so gonna have to do some performance tests with bullets etc.
 
#10 ·
A wonderful "Stutzen" of Mannlicher-Schoenauer model 1905, congratulations! This model were manufactured only in one caliber 9 x 56 MS, one of the synonymes are 9 x 57MS but yours seems it's a 9,5 X 57, exported for US marked.
. "Stutzen" means the stock is long as the barrel and the barrel is shorter than normal, specially for hunting in the mountains in southern Germany and Austria. Don't worry about bore and groove, see attached file, bore is 9,27mm ( .365'') and land is 9,62mm (.379") The proof marks are from proof house Vienna, Austria. V and P with V means reinforced proof, von Lengerke & Detmold Inc. New York were the importers, coming from Germany.
 

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#13 ·
Thank you for your info, my grove diameter is .363. and I was wondering about the -15 on the action and the +15 on the barrel, any idea what it means? I know when you tread a barrel you measure from the bolt face the face of the receiver and from the end of the barrel to the shoulder of the barrel shank, to get proper barrel fit. I was wondering if you had seen these numbers before?
 
#11 · (Edited)
I've never heard of that importer either but there were many I'm ignorant of. I thought the pictures were of the circumference but thought I'd ask. Other than the Vienna proof mark I have no idea what the others are or mean. What looks to me like the letter "E" in script inside a "V" is also for Vienna according to Wirnsberger's.. Do you think perhaps it's been re-barreled? I haven't had my 1903 apart in a while but I don't remember it having any marks such as yours other than the Vienna proof. Then, again, I'm not familiar with the 1905's.

Now I've confused myself.....lol!!! And you're right. So the groove diameter is .363, correct? As 9.3 is normally considered .366 the .363 dimension could fall in line with the "tight barrel, tight chamber" thought and practice of that time. I keep thinking one of my 9.3's mics .363 but can't remember which one, if so. Can you by chance slip the jaws of your caliper between the lands of the bore slug and get a bore diameter? Sometimes that works....and sometimes it doesn't.

I think were it me I'd get a case formed first from either 9 X 57 or 8 X 57, if they will work as is, and check the case neck diameter and thickness, compare that to the groove diameter and see how much room there is for bullet release. If .364 or .365 will work by the measurements I believe I'd get a mold of the appropriate weight at that diameter and load it up at a starting load. The bore diameter should take care of itself. I don't know if the usual suppliers have sizing dies in one of those diameters but Buffalo Arms does, at a price. I think they're $40.00 each.

If you have a good drill index with bits spaced at 1/64 an in. you can find a bit that fits snugly in the bore and mic it for the bore diameter in thousandths. That would get you real close. Or if one goes in loosely and the next size up doesn't you could split the difference between them and be pretty close. Unless one of the bits fits snugly obviously it won't be exact but as mentioned previously with cast bullets it won't much matter.

I don't have any doubts you can get it shooting and hopefully shooting quite well. It might take a little dinking with but that's what makes it fun. Anyone can go to Wally World and buy ammo. If you're area is similar to mine it's a pretty safe bet you'll have the only one on the block.....or in the county...and that's an incomparable cool factor!!!....:D

Well, Marble posted as I was typing this and cleared up a few things. I wonder about the 9.5, however, if I am understanding correctly. According to the file he enclosed the groove of the 9.5 is 9.62mm which comes out to .378 groove diameter and the 9.27 bore is .365. Your groove dia. is .363, correct? .363 inch is 0.922 mm, if my calculator is correct.
 
#12 ·
I've never heard of that importer either but there were many I'm ignorant of. I thought the pictures were of the circumference but thought I'd ask. Other than the Vienna proof mark I have no idea what the others are or mean. What looks to me like the letter "E" in script inside a "V" is also for Vienna according to Wirnsberger's.. Do you think perhaps it's been re-barreled? I haven't had my 1903 apart in a while but I don't remember it having any marks such as yours other than the Vienna proof. Then, again, I'm not familiar with the 1905's.

Now I've confused myself.....lol!!! And you're right. So the groove diameter is .363, correct? As 9.3 is normally considered .366 the .363 dimension could fall in line with the "tight barrel, tight chamber" thought and practice of that time. I keep thinking one of my 9.3's mics .363 but can't remember which one, if so. Can you by chance slip the jaws of your caliper between the lands of the bore slug and get a bore diameter? Sometimes that works....and sometimes it doesn't.

I think were it me I'd get a case formed first from either 9 X 57 or 8 X 57, if they will work as is, and check the case neck diameter and thickness, compare that to the groove diameter and see how much room there is for bullet release. If .364 or .365 will work by the measurements I believe I'd get a mold of the appropriate weight at that diameter and load it up at a starting load. The bore diameter should take care of itself. I don't know if the usual suppliers have sizing dies in one of those diameters but Buffalo Arms does, at a price. I think they're $40.00 each.

If you have a good drill index with bits spaced at 1/64 an in. you can find a bit that fits snugly in the bore and mic it for the bore diameter in thousandths. That would get you real close. Or if one goes in loosely and the next size up doesn't you could split the difference between them and be pretty close. Unless one of the bits fits snugly obviously it won't be exact but as mentioned previously with cast bullets it won't much matter.

I don't have any doubts you can get it shooting and hopefully shooting quite well. It might take a little dinking with but that's what makes it fun. Anyone can go to Wally World and buy ammo. If you're area is similar to mine it's a pretty safe bet you'll have the only one on the block.....or in the county...and that's an incomparable cool factor!!!....:D

Sharps, Well, Marble posted as I was typing this and cleared up a few things. I wonder about the 9.5, however, if I am understanding correctly. According to the file he enclosed the groove of the 9.5 is 9.62mm which comes out to .378 groove diameter and the 9.27 bore is .365. Your groove dia. is .363, correct? .363 inch is 0.922 mm, if my calculator is correct.
yes, my grove diameter is .363, and that is where all my confusion came in...lol, you had me second guessing me too, so I looked it up...as my ex wife would say, for once I was right.
 
#14 ·
Sharps, I need to go shoot some other guns today. but I do have a lathe and i'll turn down some stock to see what the bore mikes out to. I will also measure my barrel from the bolt face and get the twist, it has a really fast twist to it.
 
#15 ·
Well I simply don't understand that...I haven't made a mistake...in the last 47 seconds!!!!....lol

Boon if the case length works out I think you're right, you've got a 9.3 X 57 with a slightly tight bore. Ain't no fly's on the 9.3 X 57. Check the twist on it and that should tell you where you need to be for bullet length, thus weight. I have a 9.3 X 57 in a Husqvarna 96 Mauser and it's a hoot. I'm shooting a 262 gr. cast, gas checked bullet and Graf's had some 286 gr., I believe .365 Prvi bullets at a good price. I know it says .366 but mine mic .365. If you would prefer to shoot groove diameter you should be able to get a die made at .362 for your reloading press and swage them down that far. From .362 they will spring back that .001. They aren't spire point as pictured, they are round nose. I bought a couple hundred....a couple months ago....or maybe longer.

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/12622
 
#16 ·
Ha!! we were thinking in the same direction...about the twist....lol. As far as I know all the M/S from that era had fast twists for a long for caliber bullet, a good thing in my opinion. As you have a lathe you can make your own swaging die. A lathe is a necessity as far as I'm concerned and I regret it took me 40 years to get mine.
 
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#17 · (Edited)
Looking again to your pictures, comparing with other Mannlicher and asking friends, ther result as follows:
1.marks on the barrel: Pv = reinforced proof, double eagle with 4 inside = 3rd proof, 4 = proof house Vienna,
antique E with V = 1st proof Vienna 1899 -1928. C9.0 = definite the caliber 9mm (bore .346, groove normally .360, .363 also possible) 5487 = protocol-no. proof house Vienna. 20 = proof date 1920. V in a circle = unknown. M = unknown. 4571 = serial-no.
2. marks on the action: NPv = smokeless proof Vienna, 5487 = protocol-no. proof house Vienna. 20 = proof date 1920. 4571 = serial-no. M, M1 = unknown.
3. -15 on the action, +15 on the barrel means the chamber was 15/10mm too short, therefore the chamber were lengthen 15/10mm in the barrel. It's possible that the gun was given back by this reason, than the V in the circle on the barrel is the mark for this.
 
#18 ·
Well Marble, you confirmed one of my suspicions, the C9.0. I wondered if that was the caliber marking but honestly had no idea. That and the .346 bore dia. blows a hole in the 9.3 thought. Those seem......really different dimensions for a 9mm, don't they? .014 to .017 difference between bore and groove diameter....wow. I hope Boon posts up what he discovers his bore diameter to be. I never would have guessed the "20" was the proof date.

Your explanation of the +15 and the -15 is very interesting. I have never seen that but, there's a lot I haven't seen, or had I a clue what it meant. I assume the "protocol" number is like a manufacturer's assembly number, to keep all the previously fitted parts together?
 
#21 ·
The importer, von Lengerke & Detmold inc. New York, was notable in the day for importing MS and Mauser products. This was a high end outfit. I recall one of the delightful characters from my youth plinking with a VL&D marked broom handle Mauser. No telling what that handgun is worth today. I suspect having the importers mark on this rifle would increase the value.
 
#22 ·
Ok, life got in the way lately, but I did manage to get out to the shop and turn a brass rod down to bore diameter .348.

Rothhammer, thank you for your info, I found that 8x57 brass would not chamber, do mostly to the larger base of the shell. I have not got to either making or buying a case reducer yet.

I was wondering if anyone has tried paper patched bullets in any of these rifles? would the land depth be to great or a none issue?
 
#23 · (Edited)
Ok, life got in the way lately, but I did manage to get out to the shop and turn a brass rod down to bore diameter .348.

Rothhammer, thank you for your info, I found that 8x57 brass would not chamber, do mostly to the larger base of the shell. I have not got to either making or buying a case reducer yet.

I was wondering if anyone has tried paper patched bullets in any of these rifles? would the land depth be to great or a none issue?
Good evening, Boon.

I have just read through this thread again, and a few things stand out.

First, to 'recap,' the .20 suffix to your proof stamping is, indeed, the year in which it was proofed. My M1910 has the same 'adjustment' stamps of +.15 and -.15 as does yours. Further, the C9.0 does indicate a 9mm.

All M1905 Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles and carbines were chambered in 9X56MS originally. The MS rifle and carbine models of 1903, 1905, 1908, 1910 had proprietary cartridges and were cartridge specific. That is to say, if one wished to purchase an 'off the shelf' MS rifle or carbine in 1920 your options were 6.5X54 (M1903), 9X56 (M1905), 8X56 (M1908), 9.5X57 (M1910).

There were, however, conversions done by gunsmiths to other calibers to suit buyer's tastes. Any such conversions are usually plainly identified with stampings, then reproofed.

The longer actioned M1924 was originally produced for export to the U.S. by Stoeger as the Mannlicher Sequoia and was chambered in .30-'06 . Unsold Sequoias went back to Austria and were rechambered in various calibers as the 'High Velocity' model (A.K.A. M1925). The 1950 and later models were chambered in various calibers.

I have no experience with 9X56, but I have with 9.5X57. For the 9.5X57, I use .35 Whelen brass drawn through RCBS dies and cut to proper length. The net result is an identical twin of DWM 531, and is actually very easily formed from raw brass to finished rounds with a 2 die set. That may not, however, be the proper brass to use in forming your case. You'll want to use a case that very closely matches not only the head dimensions, but the taper of 9X56 from base to shoulder of the case. Be very sure that all of your data is for the proper cartridge, not one of its many 'close cousins.'

I do highly recommend that you get some original rounds for comparison. Be careful, however, as the original DWM headstamp is 491E, which is a different case than 491A,B, D, H, or M.

Go to the site MUNICION.ORG and search DWM for a cool pull down chart of the original cartridge headstamps.

Sharps4590 has experience with cast lead projectiles in his Mannlicher Schoenauer. I have used cast in my .44 Ruger Vaquero, but always Hornady 3715 in my 9.5 MS.

Be aware that all of the dimensions of your finished rounds should match the original if you wish to have smooth feed through the Schoenauer magazine (use round nose, seat to proper depth).
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These are 6.5x54, longer projectiles.
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Notice the bullet diameter (M1905) of .355"

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#24 ·
As with Roth I had to re-read the thread to "get my bearings". Since Boon started this thread back in October I have since acquired a 1908 in the 8 X 56 M/S cartridge. For Christmas my oldest son gave me some Buffalo Arms ammo and it too used the 35 Whelen as the parent case. I had a few Remington 30-06 cases and formed some cases from it and they work fine. For cast bullet use I did have to thin the necks just a bit and that endeavor was successful. The above is just FYI Boon, hope it sheds a little light on what you might need to do. I am exceedingly curious to see your further results.
 
#26 ·
Just ordered dies from CH4D, I have extra 06 brass laying around that I am going to use, 35 whelen would best, as that is already necked to the same bullet diameter that I am going to use, I figure a .357 should bump up ok to my grove diameter. I need to get some bullets in and some 3031 powder, then i'll see whats what. I will post later when I have more info on how I went about the loads and results. It might be a while, we are still getting storms over here. Thanks for all your info so far guys.
 
#28 ·
Thank all of you for your helpful input. I got my three die set a couple of days ago, and have been trying 30-06 brass (I couldn't find any local 35 whelen brass). I tryied some once fired brass, but the head was expanded .003 too big, unfired should fit, so I am beating the brush looking for some local stuff might have to order some in. other then the expanded web diameter, the forming was pretty smooth. I annealed about one inch of the neck to allow for shoulder set back and trim length lubed it up and one time through the press and I had a nice round. Once I have virgin brass and able to chambers smooth, I will fire form to chamber to see exactly what I am working with and then I can measure the neck diameter to see if I need to thin them down. with such odd measurements and different specks between the rounds, I figured it was safer this way then loading and round and see what happens. This is turning out to be quite the quest, man I love the chase that some old guns give you.
I plan on trying some speer 250sp, I read on a different site that he seated them deeper so they woud work through the magazine. also i'm looking for 358009 mould to load some up from that, and maybe a paper patch 300rn. Just to see what this old gal can do.


Rothhammer, great idea, I do have some stripper clips. Nice post and pics also.
 
#31 · (Edited)
Thank all of you for your helpful input. I got my three die set a couple of days ago, and have been trying 30-06 brass (I couldn't find any local 35 whelen brass). I tryied some once fired brass, but the head was expanded .003 too big, unfired should fit, so I am beating the brush looking for some local stuff might have to order some in. other then the expanded web diameter, the forming was pretty smooth. I annealed about one inch of the neck to allow for shoulder set back and trim length lubed it up and one time through the press and I had a nice round. Once I have virgin brass and able to chambers smooth, I will fire form to chamber to see exactly what I am working with and then I can measure the neck diameter to see if I need to thin them down. with such odd measurements and different specks between the rounds, I figured it was safer this way then loading and round and see what happens. This is turning out to be quite the quest, man I love the chase that some old guns give you.
I plan on trying some speer 250sp, I read on a different site that he seated them deeper so they woud work through the magazine. also i'm looking for 358009 mould to load some up from that, and maybe a paper patch 300rn. Just to see what this old gal can do.


Rothhammer, great idea, I do have some stripper clips. Nice post and pics also.
The Schoenauer magazine is very particular as to what it's fed.

That is to say that the magazine rotor has wells machined in it to cradle finished rounds of a particular profile from top to bottom, side to side. The bullet nose must closely match the shape machined in the rotor in order for the magazine to function smoothly. I should mention, here, that by 'smoothly' I'm talking melted butter on a hot day. There is nothing else like the action of a 'prewar' Mannlicher Schoenauer.

Use of other than round nosed projectiles seated at the proper depth, however, may cause binding as the round will be able to 'shift' during recoil and such. That being said, I've always heeded that advice and have never used anything other than RN projectiles in my 9.5X57 and I know there are those who use other types of projectiles.

You might ask Sharps4590 about direct experience with different bullet profiles in the Schoenauer magazine.
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6.5X54 MS
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9X56 MS
Note that the 'shoulders' of original, unfired rounds will be nowhere near as 'sharp' as yours will be after fireforming. My RCBS dies (9.5X57) leave a shoulder precisely like that of unfired DWM531 on my formed .35 Whelen brass. Once fired, they 'square up' quite a bit.

Metal Ammunition Brass

These aren't mine, but look precisely as my 9.5X57 loads do with Hornady 3715 RN bullets, 270 grain (same weight as DWM531). Top would be unfired brass with shoulder as formed by die, bottom from fired or fireformed brass.

I just looked up .35 Whelen brass and my, it's become pricey these days. MidwayUSA does have some fresh Hornady .35 Whelen brass at $33.99 per 50 (68 cents each).

I think I paid less for 100 'back in the day.'

In summation, and I can not stress this enough, first make some exact duplicates of the original (DWM491E) 9X56MS cartridges. Same dimensions, same (jacketed) bullet profile and weight. My M1910 is stamped with a 'max load' of cordite at 43 grains. If I remember correctly, I loaded with 42 grains of IMR4895 after much research.

Do the first five cartridges as 'dummies' (no primer or powder). Put the 5 dummy rounds on a stripper, open your bolt, mount the stripper in its slot and slip 'em in there with a straight downward push of your left thumb.

If you really want to impress yourself with the fact that you're holding the world's finest sporting rifle (you are), squeeze and hold the trigger, lower the muzzle and watch as the bolt closes effortlessly on its own while chambering a round (inadvisable with a live one).

Cycle the dummy rounds through the action and inspect them. If all is well, load some hot ones (to original DWM factory specifications) and let 'er rip.

If you wish to unload the magazine at once, open the bolt, reach under and around with your left middle finger and depress that cool little magazine release button. The cartridges will come streaming out, with practice you'll catch them in your right hand.

Enjoy, and Waidmannsheil!
 
#29 ·
Boon, you might take a look at Accurate Molds. Tom probably has something that will work or is close enough he can adjust the diameter. He's been a great help to me in coming up with molds that will work in some real oddballs.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php
 
#32 · (Edited)
Can't agree more with Roth in all his observations. The rotary magazine is particular in what it likes. I've been able to find cast bullets that will work in any of them but, as Roth mentioned, I do believe they need to match the profile of the original bullet very closely. The only difference being that all have a meplat rather than round nose simply because I prefer at least SOME meplat for hunting bullets. They all cycle as smoothly as jacketed round nose. Where I ran into trouble with my 6.5 X 54 was using 140 gr., jacketed spire point bullets. Two down was all it would cycle. As soon as Hornady 160 gr. round nose were available I bought a box, pulled all the 140 gr. bullets and replaced them, problem solved.

Roth's assertion of holding the rifle muzzle down with the bolt open and holding the front trigger, is also true. The bolt will slide forward and close of its own intertia. Try that with a Mauser, Mod. 70, Remington 700, Ruger 77 a custom rifle based on any of those actions....anything else. It ain't gonna happen.

He's also dead on about unloading the magazine. There is no fooling around with a lever or button that drops the floor plate and the rounds heading off into various directions. The magazine will spin all cartridges left in the magazine deftly into your hand.

Given all the hype today about super hot cartridges, mono-metal bullets and incredibly powerful optics I'm still of the opinion that the pre-war Mannlicher/Schoenauer's with a 2.5X to 6X fixed power scope, if a scope is what floats your boat, has not been bettered as a hunting rifle. They're light, handy, utterly dependable, more than accurate enough out to 400 yards and for those who believe the sedate ballistics aren't enough to cleanly kill it is apparent you have little or no experience with long for caliber bullets. W.D.M. Bell successfully used the little 6.5 X 54 M/S cartridge with 160 gr. bullets for elephant. Admittedly he was in a class by himself. When he went to the 275 Ribgy with 175 gr. bullets, basically a 7 X 57 Mauser, he only picked up 15 grs. bullet weight and .020 diameter but did maintain the long bullet.

I used to swear by the 270 WCF and a fine cartridge it is. However, it's no better than about 750 others. What I learned after getting away from it, simply because I wanted to try other cartridges, was that it, and any of the 750 others, didn't kill one bit better than cartridges running as much as 1800 fps SLOWER providing proper bullet weight, which nearly always translates to length, were used. Fast stepping cartridges and high powered optics assuredly make hitting at distance easier but, "easier" has never factored into either my shooting or hunting. For me, and this is my personal belief applicable to me, for me, it's always been about learning the capability of the rifle/cartridge combination rather than resorting to "tools and technology" to achieve an end. If "tools and technology" are your thing, good for you!!! We all need to find what pleases and excites us. Having said all that, I'll never be convinced high dollar bullets are remotely necessary for quick, humane results on game and certainly not for accuracy, at any distance.
 
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#34 ·
for those who believe the sedate ballistics aren't enough to cleanly kill it is apparent you have little or no experience with long for caliber bullets. W.D.M. Bell successfully used the little 6.5 X 54 M/S cartridge with 160 gr. bullets for elephant.
Sectional density.
Brass Metal Ammunition


Bell realized that a narrow diameter bullet that carried a lot of weight would give superior penetration.
 
#33 ·
[QUOTE="sharps4590,
The only difference being that all have a meplat rather than round nose simply because I prefer at least SOME meplat for hunting bullets.

Roth's assertion of holding the rifle muzzle down with the bolt open and holding the front trigger, is also true. The bolt will slide forward and close of its own intertia. [/QUOTE]

I neglected to mention squeezing the trigger (my takedown has a single) while doing the 'gravity' trick (that's why one wouldn't wish to do it with a live round, only a 'dummy' or no cartridge at all). I'll edit the post.
Gun Trigger Firearm Rifle Gun accessory


Thank you, Sharps, for adding to my vocabulary the word, - meplat. You had me going all Oxford English on that French word (it's actually not in my print edition OED). Next time someone says, "well bless your pointy little head," I can retort "No, it has a meplat (sort of)."

Soldier Standing Military rank Military officer Uniform

No meplats here, Oberst, all spire points.

Line Water Diagram Plot Parallel


Wado.
 
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