I try not to shoot more than 1 or 2 miscreants a week, can’t abide the paper work. A S&W 500 is better than a 22 for SD, but a 38special with SD loads is adequate. SD is short range, you can what if stuff to death. I would guess that more than 50% of SD guns carried are 9mm Compacts and I hear no major outcry that they aren’t enough. On flip side of this a guy scuffed a grizz with a 9mm Glock. Poor bear he is going to have to suffer the indignity of having, “ Killed by a Person with a Plastic Pistol” chiseled in his stone. I would be more concerned about having a gun that was proven dependable.
.357 vs 38 Special
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You would be 'Glad' to shoot me ? I find it disturbing you would express 'pleasure' in shooting someone - even if only in jest with regard to an innocuous reference to the effectiveness (or lack of) the .357 Magnum in very short barrels.
You obviously missed my point which was referencing the technical aspects of certain rounds how they may (or may not) perform ballistically in varying barrel lengths, and not on what it may, or may not do when shot at a person.
Heck, you could hack off the barrel of a .357 gun to a 1/4" and it would no doubt be devastating to shoot someone however this was hardly what I was referring to.
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Thank you, of course I was only jesting as I have not even been in a real fist fight my entire life and I abhor violence as a solution to any conflict. I guess you could say, I just called your bluff and you complied by responding to it.
But, I guess you are no longer stating that a snub nose 357 is useless since you appear to be upset with that proposed experiment. I certainly wouldn't want to shoot anyone with a snub nose 357 unless it was of the gravest extreme as Mas Ayoob states in his books and writings. But, I don't have any doubt that if I had to use it in self defense, it would do what it is designed to do. Lastly, I do hope and pray I never have to put it to the test, but I am confident in the ability of the Ruger SP101 2.25 inch barrel with proper ammo that it is indeed a substantial self defense tool.
So, I guess the issue is resolved, you truly don't feel a snub nose with full load 357's is useless.
In any case, there are plenty of ballistic and real life evidence of the effectiveness of snub nose 357's with the right ammo. Not much more to be said, except I know a missionary in Alaska on the Yukon that has killed two Black bears with his SP101. Yup, not a bad little hand canon to have on you hip at all. It is like many things, ammo selection is the solution.
But, I do wonder how a 357 in a 2 inch snub is useless but a 38 is a great option for a 2 inch snub with modern powder and bullets??
"Modern powders and bullets have transformed the .38 Special into a very formidable round in a 2" snub and even better in a longer barrel."
Anyway, I suspect we have reached a time to simply disagree in harmony on the issues which I will do.
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As many have already said, a .38 Special can be enough for a personal defense handgun.
That being said - those .38 Special FMJs - if they are the old 130 grain Service Round I'm thinking of - are only good for practice and plinking. Those were the rounds I was issued for my sidearm and the only ammunition available to us at the time and at the end of the Supply Chain. They were loaded pretty weak, and I can only assume that it was because at the time the Air Force was issuing an aluminum frame revolver - so the rest of us who still had steel frame WW2 era M&Ps and Colts were stuck with that ammo. Thank you Robert S. McNamara and The Whiz Kids.
You don't need +P .38 Special ammo for that caliber to be effective. There were "Police Loads" available that had a good charge and used a 158 grain round nose lead bullet that many Departments used to issue. Of course lighter bullets with higher velocities are quite effective.
That being said - those .38 Special FMJs - if they are the old 130 grain Service Round I'm thinking of - are only good for practice and plinking. Those were the rounds I was issued for my sidearm and the only ammunition available to us at the time and at the end of the Supply Chain. They were loaded pretty weak, and I can only assume that it was because at the time the Air Force was issuing an aluminum frame revolver - so the rest of us who still had steel frame WW2 era M&Ps and Colts were stuck with that ammo. Thank you Robert S. McNamara and The Whiz Kids.
You don't need +P .38 Special ammo for that caliber to be effective. There were "Police Loads" available that had a good charge and used a 158 grain round nose lead bullet that many Departments used to issue. Of course lighter bullets with higher velocities are quite effective.
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There was the 38spl+p+ Treasury load in the 60s. K/L frames only.
www.shootingtimes.com
The 38 Special +P+ Treasury Load - Shooting Times
The original law-enforcement-only high-speed .38 Special Treasury Load is hard to get, but excellent alternatives abound.
www.shootingtimes.com
There use to be a 200gr 38sp police load. Winchester may still load them. Many of the old school cops swore by them for knock down power. They were just blunt RN lead bullets. I think people get to far in the weeds when worrying about stuff like 38 vs 357. The 110gr loads are impressive velocities but so what. You can only kill something so dead, you can’t kill it more. If you have had much experience hunting deer or bigger game you know there is no constant. A animal that is unaware it’s about to be shot should drop like a rock, according to popular belief. The opposite is expected of one pumping adrenaline. I’ve seen it reverse and no reason for it. I’ve blown the heart out of a grazing deer to have it run 100yds before piling up. That’s with a 12g slug. The stories of 38Colt not stopping drug crazed natives gets overplayed. The 45acp not having the power of 357 is another. While both may be true on paper doesn’t mean a lot in real world. I don’t carry because I live where crime is almost non existent. When I venture out into the world I’m not the least bit afraid that a 380 won’t protect me.
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I often carry a .38 Special revolver. I carry the 158 grain Semi-wadcutter, hollow point (SWCHP) ammunition (developed when .38 Special was the go to round and still available) in it. I will not suggest the 'standard' 158 grain round nosed lead (RNL) bullet.
For most folk, the full charge .357 Magnum is a handful of recoil and muzzle blast. It can be controlled, but takes some work, both physical and mental. However, even losing velocity in a short barreled revolver, it is still more potent than the corresponding .38 Special load in the same revolver. The .38 Special is typically much more easy to handle.
As already suggested, shoot some of both on the range. Get an idea of what you can handle and what you want to handle. Usually, the .38 Special loading will shoot close enough to the same place you can practice with such. And it's cheaper.
For most folk, the full charge .357 Magnum is a handful of recoil and muzzle blast. It can be controlled, but takes some work, both physical and mental. However, even losing velocity in a short barreled revolver, it is still more potent than the corresponding .38 Special load in the same revolver. The .38 Special is typically much more easy to handle.
As already suggested, shoot some of both on the range. Get an idea of what you can handle and what you want to handle. Usually, the .38 Special loading will shoot close enough to the same place you can practice with such. And it's cheaper.
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In my opinion, I don't care what caliber you carry. IF you put the rounds where they need to be they will stop the threat. Most self defense cases happen around 21 feet or so. That's not far from the muzzle so to me muzzle velocity doesn't mean much. What does mean a lot is YOUR capability to remain calm and put that first shot on target. If you put it center mass there's a very good chance the threat will be stopped, if you put it in the arm or leg, not so much. None of us knows how we will react if that time comes but a clear mind and practice will make sure your ready. You have to remember that your not trying to put down a deer at 100 yards, your trying to save your or someone else's life at maby 5 to 10 yards.
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Excellent comment.
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Luckily, we live at a great time for firearm and ammo technology. The old adage, "Practice with 38 and carry 357" has been proven to be very flawed. As most of us now know, civilian defensive shooting usually occur at around 3 yards, with 3 shots fired in 3 seconds. Most criminal violence takes place after dark. That being said, a modern low recoil 38 Special, loaded for short barreled firearms, with low flash powder is what you should be focusing on. I would recommend you take a look at the Buffalo Bore Standard Pressure Short Barrel Ammo, specifically the 20D Full Hard Cast Wadcutter, rather than a hollow point, as you want penetration to be able to reach vital organs, not expansion.
Hope this helps.
Hope this helps.
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I have no problem carrying an S&W Airwieght or my Ruger SP-101 with 38s. My Ruger is a 357 mag but it's hard to control with that round. I can get much more accurate shots with the 38s. On the other hand, my Ruger Vaquero is much more accurate with the magnum loads.
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I have been shooting my Ruger SP101 for long enough that I no longer shoot 38s in it in part because the 38's are harder to clean than the 357's.
The owner and instructor of my CCW course here in Idaho, Ed Santos of Center Target Sports told us he carries a lightweight, Titanium 357 in his pocket as a BUG. He states he shoots full power 357 and does so once a month, 5 shots only because it is a painful gun to shoot. This is a man that is about 6'2" and about 240 lbs. He is retired military and part time LEO and expert firearms instructor and personal bodyguard. The lightweight Titanium 357's are a beast I don't want to contend with. The Ruger SP101 is 12-14 oz heavier but the same size so you can pocket carry them and I have done so many, many times.
The Ruger SP101 is small enough but also heavy enough to be comfortable shooting. It seemed subjectively to me to be about the same felt recoil as my Ruger SuperRedhawk in 44 magnum with a 7.5 inch barrel. That gun weighed 54 oz's and was very manageable. If you can shoot a 44 magnum, the Ruger SP101 with full 357's is not a bad gun at all to shoot.
The adage is shoot the biggest caliber you can comfortably and reliably shoot. I find my Ruger SP101 very easy to shoot with 357's. My son on the other hand has only a limited amount of experience shooting handguns and he shot my Ruger GP100 with full 357's and only shot one round before he handed it back to me. So, it is experience and learned ability on what you carry. But I do call my SP101 a little hand canon. It packs a pretty good wallop, but with experience, easy to control. It is after all a "belly" gun meant for short range self defense against all 2 and 4 legged predators.
So, I can't agree that you should ONLY use a 38 in these type of guns. Sorry, I don't like cleaning the cylinder after shooting the 38's any more. And the full power 357's are not hard to shoot after you get experience with them.
Now, a couple more years to this old decrepit body and I might stop shooting 357's in it and go to the Buffalo Bore 38 sp offerings which are quite good. But for now, my little hand canon is my EDC in my own home because it is so lightweight and I have other guns within close reach should, God forbid, I need more. But yes, it does give your hand a pretty good thump but still not as much as my 44 magnum was, but close.
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If someone wants to shoot 38's all the time then get a revolver chambered in 38 Spec only. If you shoot a lot of 38's in a 357 you need to have a reemer to clean the powder residue out of the cylinger or soon you will not be able to load 357's because of the carbon build up.
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Never owned a 38 just 357s, shot more 38s than 357s by a long margin, never had an issue.
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Yup, that is one reason I no longer do shoot 38's with my Ruger SP101. Not fun cleaning the cylinder after shooting 38's. And, with practice, shooting with full load 357's isn't any worse than shooting a 44 magnum or other high powered handgun. And the ballistic differences between 38's and 357's is a magnitude of double or more with the 357's.
But if shooting a lighter weight 357 is uncomfortable, which I understand, then by all means, get the best 38 sp ammo you can find. But yes, the carbon build up in the cylinder isn't fun to clean when shooting a bunch of 38's in a 357 handgun.
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If you shoot say 20/30 38's and then some 357's you probably wouldn't have an issue but if you shoot 200/300 38's and then try and load some 357's you might notice they don't want to load easy. A few 38's followed by some 357's will keep the carbon cleaned out. What i was refering to is if your going to shoot a steady diet of 38's without cleaning the carbon, you won't be able to shoot 357's without reeming out the carbon.
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There are a few handguns that you hear folks complain of them coming back and rapping the bone/knuckle of the middle finger. Sometimes, a different grip can help. My Bulldog 44 spc will do that and so does the Ruger SBH with the squared trigger guard. I hear the SP101 does that also. These do it with hot loads that recoil more than std light loads. I've picked up a few SP101s and they just never felt comfortable in my hand. Probably just me. I shot a state trooper's once back when you could get them for 38s. The cylinder was shorter then and for some reason, I liked that one. Long time ago.
Alaska, I wonder what your SP 101 would feel like with the old 125gr magnums from back in the '80s when they were still a hot magnum load. Today's are much tamer by comparison from what I hear. I haven't shot a 357 mag revolver since my old Model 19 back in the late '70s.
As to the op's question. Isn't there one 38 spc loading that is said to expand from a 2" barrel.?" I'd think then that a 357 load with that bullet would also. Other than rounds that are known and proven to expand, I'd just shoot a hot full wadcutter or a semi with good sharp shoulders. Anything else will just act like a round nose and do less damage which might get you hurt or killed when you need one. The NYPD shot round nose 158s for decades and they were very poor rounds, but like any round, if it hits a vital, the person may die before he can be helped due to blood loss. The round nose fmj is also why the 9mm had such a poor reputation for so long.
Alaska, I wonder what your SP 101 would feel like with the old 125gr magnums from back in the '80s when they were still a hot magnum load. Today's are much tamer by comparison from what I hear. I haven't shot a 357 mag revolver since my old Model 19 back in the late '70s.
As to the op's question. Isn't there one 38 spc loading that is said to expand from a 2" barrel.?" I'd think then that a 357 load with that bullet would also. Other than rounds that are known and proven to expand, I'd just shoot a hot full wadcutter or a semi with good sharp shoulders. Anything else will just act like a round nose and do less damage which might get you hurt or killed when you need one. The NYPD shot round nose 158s for decades and they were very poor rounds, but like any round, if it hits a vital, the person may die before he can be helped due to blood loss. The round nose fmj is also why the 9mm had such a poor reputation for so long.
38spl use to be considered maginal, but with modern ammo this not true. Ask around and do some research, I think you can find some very good, no great, ammo in 38spl, some especially made for 2" barrels.
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I like what is left of my hearing so no, I won't go with the 125's.
But, I do have woods ammo that is just if not more potent in 600+ ft-lbs of muzzle energy. When needed, hang on for the ride!!
But no, I have never had an issue with the Ruger SP101 slapping my middle finger. I use a strong two handed grip when shooting it and I have an upgraded grip from Hogue that handles the recoil better than the standard grip it comes with. Most people recommend this for all revolvers unless you like those decorative things.
Like I said before, with the weight differences and power differences, it still felt slightly less of a felt recoil than my much heavier 44 magnum which most shooters have no troubles with.
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