40 S&W results (LE might want to read

Discussion in 'The Ammo & Reloading Forum' started by kevinleif37, Mar 30, 2009.

  1. kevinleif37

    kevinleif37 New Member

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    may be old news to some, but a buddy of mine sent this to me the other day:

    The results of this FBI analysis really reinforces the importance of shot placement if you are ever forced to use your gun against an attacker. Police fired a total of 107 rounds at the single suspect and it took an M4 rifle to finally incapacitate him. The suspect was able to fire 26 rounds from his .45 caliber handgun and even reloaded from a box of loose rounds.

    3 officers were involved in a shooting on December 15th, 2006. An ambush was set up for the officers prior to their arrival, they took fire while still in their cruisers. One officer was hit in the forearm, another received wounds to his forehead from a ricochet, another was injured (NFI). The suspect was armed with a .45 handgun. The officers were armed with Glock 22's (.40S&W) and SPEER 180 gr. Gold Dot Hollow Points.

    Officers fired on the subject and hit him in the left arm, completely shattering the bone. He was also hit five times in the chest and abdomen. All rounds penetrated less than 1 (one inch) (B. All of the rounds expanded fully but did not cause incapacitation due to the lack of penetration. According to the Medical Examiner, none of the rounds caused any life threatening injuries. The subject also received one round into the front of his throat, it penetrated less than 1in (B as well. The Medical Examiner stated that the recovered rounds were in pristine condition (still had rifling marks on them).

    The subject was wearing a down jacket at the time of the incident. He was finally taken down after receiving rounds from an M-4 .223, with Hornady Tap 55 gr ballistic tip rounds and Hornady Tap 72 gr. Hollow Points.

    The officer with the M-4 was able to shoot underneath a vehicle and hit the suspect in the ankle. The officer then flanked the subject, who continued to engage officers, and was eventually killed by the officer with the M-4.

    The subject had a trace amount of marijuana in his system.

    Range between subject and officers: 20 feet. Subject had a t-shirt on under his jacket.

    Subject received approximately sixteen ..223 rounds, thirteen of these rounds went completely through. One round struck his hip and completely shattered it. Another .223 round struck his aorta and another pierced and collapsed his lung. Both of these rounds lodged themselves inside the subject.

    The Medical Examiner stated that the ..223 rounds caused massive internal damage.

    This is the second shooting that the PD has experienced where they had to shoot a subject in excess of ten times with .40 S&W ammo to incapacitate or kill. There was another incident where a subject was shot inside of his vehicle. He was struck approximately ten times, all the while continuing to fire at officers. He was eventually killed after suffering a shot to the back of his head.

    In this same incident, the back of the subject's seat was struck multiple times, the ..40 S&W rounds never penetrated through the seat. In this incident, all shots had passed through either the windshield or rear window. Investigators assume that this was the reason for the poor ballistic performance.

    (The) PD is now considering replacing their Glock 22's (.40S&W) with Glock 21's (.45ACP)..
     
  2. JLA

    JLA Well-Known Member

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    bout time they saw the light.... thats what ive been saying all along....
     

  3. BobMcG

    BobMcG Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    Right, right, gatta be the cartridge's fault. Couldn't possibly be piss poor bullet designs being utilized. (Big name Gold Dot or not.)

    Maybe some of the manufactures should study these results and go back to the drawing board. (Or take a clue from what Hornady has been up to lately.)

    Besides, an ammo swap would be a heck of lot easier and less expensive than a complete handgun and ammo swap. The 40 is capable, doesn't have a bad track record over all and it's the taxpayers that have to pay the bill every time around.
     
  4. cycloneman

    cycloneman Well-Known Member

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    strange. i suspect the rounds in question didnt have a whole lot of velocity. you need velocity for the bullet to do it's thing. the .40 is a great round, i would like to know what the velocity of these rounds were. a chrony would tell the tale. swaping and moving to the 45 is not figuring out the problem. i personally always op for velocity. id only change for the 10mm.
     
  5. RandyP

    RandyP Active Member

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    Doesn't sound like the bad guy's .45 did him much good either?

    How freakin huge was this dude? I suspect most criminal types will not continue to return fire after this much destruction. But I reckon if the BG weighs in on a cattle scale and has 4" of fat that needs penetrating, bring the M1 Garands.
     
  6. CampingJosh

    CampingJosh Well-Known Member

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    Do we have a source for this???

    Also, if the problem is lack of penetration, the move to .45 ACP doesn't make much sense. 9mm or .357 SIG or .357 Mag would be much better choices.
     
  7. mrkirker

    mrkirker New Member

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    I too, would like to see the original abstract.
     
  8. kevinleif37

    kevinleif37 New Member

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    sorry, only other thing attached to the email was this:

    " .40 caliber vs .45 caliber - FBI Report attached - autopsy photos
    40 caliber vs 45 caliber-FBI PDF Report attached-autopsy photos "
     
  9. graehaven

    graehaven Well-Known Member

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    3 officers, and none of them pulled out the shotgun? That's just retarded. :eek:
     
  10. kevinleif37

    kevinleif37 New Member

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    well, this did come from the FBI, and come to think of it, i also heard of one FBI armorer who decided to "straighten" the ejector when the glocks first came out to him-he said he thought it either had gotten bent while being shipped or was defective, so he figured he'd fix the problem himself...found out the hard way that you don't do that!
     
  11. Popgunner

    Popgunner Active Member

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    I've taken high dollar safety & HP ammo to the range & experimented with different calibers on different targets like cars, winshields, winter coats, ballistic gelatin & whatever I can find. That's why I carry FMJ.
     
  12. FTK87

    FTK87 New Member

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    Yea, FMJ is the way to go with .45 at least you will have plenty of penetration and weight retention.
     
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