[CaptSammy]

I have been searching, but being new to guns and ammo in general my searches may not be too accurate.

I am think of getting my first gun. I want something for home defense, easy to learn for the wife, able to hunt deer if need be and able to shoot at the indoor range.

I have narrowed to the Circuit Judge in either the 410/45LC or the 44. The 410 would be my first choice because it could do small game as well. Problem is the local range doesnt allow shot, slugs only. The long distance in the cylinder kind of affects accuracy from what I read. So I got the crazy idea of learning to reload 45 bullets into 444 brass to get that lead closer to the barrel. Of course then I have to round up some empty 444 :/

Nothing to rack so easier for my small wife to learn, she is timid around firearms to begin with.

Of course 45 is good to go at the range.

The best alternative from what I have found i the same gun in 44, and just shoot 44 special.

Can 45 lead be crimped on 444 shells, would it help, or should I just take the 44 road.

Third possability would be a Rossi lever action 44, looks fun, but I doubt the wife approval would be there. Hmmm, or maybe a Marlin 444 in a lever action (if there is such an animal) and save brass, get the 410 Circuit judge next year

Glad I found you all,
Sam

 

[howlnmad]

I'm going to comment on one thing now and come back later on the rest.

If you're wife is timid around firearms now and you have her touch off a 444 Marlin........................ she'll run like hell from the next firearm she sees.


Oh yeah, welcome to TFF

 

[CaptSammy]

Yeah buying a 444 was more of a joke. Buying a Marlin to collect 444 brass would be a little on the overkill


EDIT: BTW thought of the handgun route but would require way more time at the range for her to get it under control. A 20 gauge shotgun would work, but back to the rage restrictions.

 

[howlnmad]

Here is another possibility... 410 rifle slug shotgun shells.

 

[CaptSammy]

That brings up the last issue with 410, dang expensive! That is an option however, I didnt know there were 410 slugs avail.

So the 444 brass 45 idea isnt really a good option?

 

[aa1911]

I've not messed with 45 bullets in the .410 but 444 marlin fits perfectly in a .410 chamber, I use them for my brass shells. I've got a milk crate full of .410 hulls but they only last a couple reloads so I'm slowly moving to brass.

I use circle fly wads for undershot cards and gas seals and make my own overshot cards from milk cartons and a 7/16" hole punch, seal off the top with water glass or glue.

I suppose crimping would be better if a .45 bullet will work though.

.410 shells are stupid expensive, it blows my mind. over double the price of 12g which has something like 2-3 times the amount of components. Very cheap to reload though.

 

[Alpo]

Magtech sells 410 brass 2 1/2" shells. Take a regular large pistol primer. They're about a buck each, but beats the heck out of trying to make 410 brass out of 303 Brit or 30/40.

I was gonna leave this alone, but as long as I've stepped in the door -

Shotguns throw a shot charge that makes a usable pattern because it is going straight down a smooth barrel.

Rifles, on the other hand, do not have a smooth barrel. They have grooves cut into the barrel.

The grooves, if they are big enough to grip the bullet, will cause a shot charge to spin, which in turn will make the shot pattern both gigantic and crappily-shaped.

If the grooves are shallow enough that they do not effect the shot charge, then they are also shallow enough that they will not grip the bullet. Your rife accuracy then sucks.

There is a reason why, in the 400 or so years that rifled firearms have been around, that you very seldom see a gun chambered for both a rifle and a shotshell. It's because it's a really sucky idea. If it works well for one, it doesn't work well for the other, and if you try to make it a compromise, it does not work well for either.

You can kinda/sorta get away with this with a pistol. The shorter the barrel the less rifling, and the less spin is put on the shot charge.

If you want a 410 shotgun, then buy a 410 shotgun. If you want a 45 caliber rifle, then buy a 45 caliber rifle. There are many of both out there. They also make combination guns, that have both a shotgun barrel and a rifled barrel on the same gun, although I am not aware of one that comes in 410 and 45.

And lastly, a revolver for a long gun is stupid. They tried it, back in the mid 1800s. They stopped using it, also. Flash from the cylinder gap burns your forearm.

I strongly advise against it.

 

[howlnmad]

Federal makes a 2 1/2" rifled slug and Winchester makes 2 1/2" and 3" but as aa pointed out they can get spendy. A box of 5 will run between 5 and 7 bucks. The 444 brass is great for making shotgun loads but I don't know about jamming a 45 cal pill into 444 brass. In reality you're wanting to build a 45 Ultra Long. Someone with more experimenting time and know how will have to answer that.

 

[CaptSammy]

Building a 45 extra long is a perfect label for what I intended. The Circuit judge 410/45LC is rifled, how well I do not know. It seemed a good rifle without a proper ammo avail.

That gun may be a lost cause, as most of the rifle revolver Rossi solutions are turning out to be.

I also considered the Rossi 28ga version, but for some crazy reason their documentation states no slugs can be used. I was like huh?

From all accounts the 44mag version is accurate and meets all my needs, I would have preferred a shotgun option for HD, but a 44 special would carry a nice stopping power (if it hits). Reloading options may be more flexible as well.

I could also get a 44 revolver handgun down the road and share ammo between the two.

410 Shotshell reloading looks to be more than a noob should look at. Maybe Getting a small 20ga shotgun for her, a 44 lever action for me with a 44 handgun as backup

A collection such as the following would better suit all needs and not break the bank if spaced out over the year:
Rem/Moss 20ga Youth
Rossi 44 lever action Rifle
Ruger Blackhawk 44
Loading gear for 20ga and 44 special with a nice 44 mold.

Sorry for the ramble

 

[hunter29180]

CaptSammy, one of the first things you mentioned was something "easy to learn for the wife". let that be the guiding light! if she has little to no experience with firearms then handing her something that will be more than she can handle will only set her mind that this idea of yours is dumb and dumber..ever try to change a womans mind? its almost a act of god just to ger her to reconsiter!!

so start small!! she must learn to crawl before she can walk..dont expect her to start out running! your goal is to get a SD weapon than could be used for hunting so allow her time to work up! she may catch the bug and start buying her own weapons before you realize it! suggest start with a .22 pistol..easy to operate..cheap to practice with and she will have no problem handeling it. just take her where the is a good selection of them in both revolvers and semi-auto and let her pick it out..it will be her gun not yours so enjoy this time together. she hopefully will soon suggest that its time for you to get yourself your very own gun!! then get what you want! just remember let her choose her own guns.

yes, I realize a .22 isnt what you had in mind for SD. but ask yourself this..if you were away from home and wife was home alone..which would you rather she have? a gun shes terrified of shooting or a piddly .22 she has practiced with and shown profencicy with? even a Bad guy will usually back off from a .22! after all they usually dont want to be injured in the commision of a breakin!

and remember the .22 is very good for small game hunting!!

 

[aa1911]

something my father told me when growing up, DON'T try to teach your wife how to shoot or drive a car. I tried to teach shooting and within minutes she was crying. Wasn't doing or saying anything crazy, but had her go take a self defense handgun course at the local indoor range. She said they taught her the same stuff I was trying to but for whatever reason, they don't want to hear it from you.

The magtech brass .410 shells are nice but the 444 marlin shells are cheaper, only about 40 cents vs. $1/round, it's only 1/4" shorter and is plenty long enough to get a good 1/2oz of shot in.

.410 shotshell loading isn't hard or any different than any other shotshell, matter of fact, it's quite easy as there's not near as many components or powders to choose from.

A MEC 650 Jr is a great starter shotgun press, I use mine still quite a bit for load testing rounds and all my slugs/buckshot stuff. Cabela's has them for $166 right now.

 

[howlnmad]

Let's put the pieces together on this before we get sidetracked on reloading .410.

1: He's interested in the Rossi Circuit Judge in 45/.410
2: He read that the jump from the brass to the forcing cone affects accuracy on the 45 round.
3: He read that the 444 Marlin brass can be used in a .410.

What I've come to understand is that he's looking for a way to make an ultra ultra long 45 Colt round using a 45 caliber bullet in 444 Marlin brass to reduce the jump. I don't think he wants to load 45 bullets in 444 brass like a shotgun slug.

 

[aa1911]

this guy actually fired a full .444 marlin rifle round out of his .410 shotgun, I don't see why a 45 bullet meant for a LC round would hurt in the judge outta a marlin case.

No idea where to start for loads though, not something I would play with when there's tons of other options out there. I'm sure someone's done it though.

 

[CaptSammy]

Yeah, if I could make a 45superlong I would probably be good to go with the 410/45lc Rossi. 410 ammo pricing should be considered a crime.

If pump/lever is not a good choice, maybe semi-auto 22 rifle of some sort that can do 22magnum? It would hunt small game well and cheap. Not sure how big game is viable with a 22Mag. Cheap to practice with for sure. I dont see an opportunity for loading 22, they are so cheap it probably isnt worth it.

 

[Alpo]

Now you got me confused. Maybe I missed something.

>If pump/lever is not a good choice<
Why would either not be a good choice? I've got three pump 22s, 3 pump 12 gauges and a pump 35 Remington. Pump is a great choice. Not even sure how many levers I've got, but have them from 22 to 45/70. Again, great choice.

>22Mag. Cheap to practice with for sure.< Cheaper than 45, maybe, but I don't consider 10 dollars a box "cheap". 22 Long Rifle, however, is cheap. Not as cheap as it used to be, but then, what is?

>I dont see an opportunity for loading 22, they are so cheap it probably isnt worth it.< If you are meaning 22 LR or 22 magnum, they are rimfire, and for all practical purposes, are not reloadable.

 

[CaptSammy]

I identified pump/lever as not a good choice as my wife would have trouble as a beginner. She is already timid about holding a gun, much less doing so while it makes a loud wracking noise. Of course the following noise is going to be even louder, but at that point it should be more in control and more expected. A semi auto is "Its loaded, point it down there and pull the trigger".

Me, I really want one of both, a pump and a lever, can ya get both on one rifle?

Maybe I dont give her enough credit, but she freaks out when I pull out a nail gun.

 

[aa1911]

sounds like a .22 LR revolver (longer barrel) should be your next gun? or even a .22 mag revolver if you don't mind the extra cost of ammo.

I don't trust anything but a revolver in .22 for any self defense application, semi's and just about everything else can and will jam at the worst time. The round just doesn't lend itself well to complete reliable feeding IMO. Sure, there's stuff that will cycle well most of the time, but.... ya know.

and .22 mag ain't cheap! Winchester dynapoints can still be had for $9/box but most are running 11-17 bucks for 50. ouch

 

[Alpo]

A semi auto is also "as soon as you pull the trigger it is loaded and ready to fire again". Every other type of gun you have to do something else. Work the bolt, work the lever, work the pump. If the sound of the gun causes her to jump and pull the trigger of a semi again, it goes bang again. The others don't.

If you want her to learn, you need a couple of things.

You need something that don't kick. RECOIL scares new shooters.

You need something that is not loud. NOISE scares new shooters.

And you need something that is cheap to shoot. Because to get good you need to shoot a lot, which means the cheaper the ammo, the more you can afford to shoot.

All that means is you need to start 'em with a 22.

 

[CaptSammy]

Any options other then the Rossi 22LR/22Mag? Altho that seems to be a really nice option. 22LR can be had at a shop near me:
http://georgia-arms.com/blazer22longrifle500packbrick.aspx

How useful is a 22 rifle for hunting? I am guessing it can take down anything smallish with accuracy?

I think I have strayed from the Loader aspect of this forum channel :/

 

[CaptSammy]

WOW, you guys steered me down a new (to me) rabbit hole. While not revolver, I found the take down 22 rifles. The Marlin Papoose and the US Survival rifle. I could even backpack with something like that. Opinions on those little beasties?

I hope you veterans get a kick out of a noob coming across all these cool things, must remind you of back in the day you tripped upon them