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Discussion Starter #1
now that I have a 45-70, I want to pickup a set of dies for it.

Normally I try to get RCBS dies.. just because I use them the most.. my fallback, especially for a caliber I won;t shoot a ton of, would be lee, if nothing else.. for cost savings.

now.. looking at 4570.. I see lee has a 3 die set for 30$.. and some like lyman about 55$

then I see rcbs has a couple offerings. plain 45-70 govt, and cowbow action.

what's the difference?

for reference.. my 45-70 is a modern gun.. biakal double rifle, 2200bar etc...

I already have some reloadable brass and projectiles i've pulled from some bulk ammo I got for near free ( witht he exact purpose to pull it..e tc.. )

( I'll porbably use some of those projectiles in a 458winmag/lott configuration as well.. but that's another post.. :) don't even have the dies yet.. :) )

?? so what's the skinny onthe different 45-70 dies?

lastly? has anyone loaded 45-70 for a modern gun using a black powder equivalent for reduced recoil loads? like pyrodex? advised or not?

have also heard of loads using rtrailboss.. etc.

thanks
 

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I load for my Sharps reproduction and use RCBS and Redding dies. I don't know what the difference is on the Cowboy dies. I shoot smokeless but did play with some loads using Blackhorn 209. You get the "replica" feel with all of the smoke but none of the mess. Pyrodex and 777 are pretty dirty and have to be cleaned with a water based solvent like Windex. No thanks.
 

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The Cowboy series dies are machined to work better with cast boolits.

The Lee dies will work just fine, though I would opt for the RCBS or Hornady dies even if you won't shoot a ton of it. They're only a few bucks more and worth it IMO.
 

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The "Cowboy" dies are designed for shooting lead bullets. Jacketed is not allowed in "Cowboy shooting". My guess would be the expander opens the case a little more. A jacketed 45/70 bullet is 457. Lead is 458 or 459.

I load my 45/70s - strictly cast, using Lee dies.

I just went and looked at RCBS.com The 45/70 cowboy die expander is made like a Lyman M die. It has a separate step on it, so the neck gets belled .458, while the mouth is 462 or thereabouts. Easier to start a lead bullet.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/289305/rcbs-cowboy-expander-assembly-45-70-government

This is Lyman's site, talking about the 30 caliber M die, but they all work the same.

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/dies/rifle-die-details.php?brand=3&cartridge=26&die=52
 

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The Lee dies will work fine with the J-bullet
I shoot hand cast lead bullets in an 1895 Marlin, so can't say what a good jacketed bullet would be.
I shoot Unique in my reduced loads, but will only run the lead 1400 fps or so.

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm
A good site for reduced load info. This is lead bullet only info.
 

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I load cast and jacketed both in 45/70. Use the standard RCBS die set with no problems. Paper patch is a different story.
 

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I use the standard RCBS dies and load both cast and jacketed. Mostly cast and quite a bit of paper patched with no trouble. My only issue was the factory crimp and I use a f/l sizing die to taper crimp the loaded round.

Powders I use include IMR4198 and RL7. Both are good choices for moderate pressure loads with good velocities and accuracy.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
last few days I've been looking all over for relaod stuff.

all the local stores and shops are out of dies, shell holders.. primers and powder.

I finally got the # to a guy off a bulletin board at a pawn shop and worked a swap with him today.

I got a good looking 3 die rcbs set for 45-70 in trade for a used lee 7mm rem mag spare set I had. traded him the lee set and a shell holder for his rcbs set with no shell holder and got a mixed bag of brass.. some 1xfired, needing deprime and clean.. some leaned trimmed and primed ready to load. probably 60 cases in all.

I figure it was a good deal.. the rcbs set looks better than the 7mm set I traded.. plus I got brass.. but now I'm looking for a #14 shell holder .

no info came with the dies.

i see 3 of them. one is obviously deprime.. one says it is a seater.. the other looks like it has a plug in it.. guessing expander?

which one crimps?

i got no info on it?

thanks
 

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Discussion Starter #9
die is rcbs 3 die steel # 20904 group C shellholder 14
 

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The 3-die rifle set works just like a pistol set.

One sizes and deprimes, one expands and one seats and crimps.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
this one of those deals where you seat in 1 step, then remove the seater plug and then crimp.

IE 2 stages, not a seat and crimp like i do with botlenecked brass?

trying to download the instructions for them.. having issues for some reason...
 

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Discussion Starter #13
( so far I have not done much on straight wall cartridges. everything I've relaoded was bottleneck.. etc.. )
 

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Man, you gonna love it. It is so much easier than bottleneck.

First, no grease dents in the shoulder. Why? NO SHOULDER. :D

Then, you never buckle the shoulder by applying too much crimp. Why. SAME REASON. :D:D
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
is the crimp die use as follows?

after seating, remove seater plug, then run complete cartridge back into die and then check crimp? adjust as needed. then batch all yer seated rounds?

is it a taper or roll crimp from that die?

ps.. thanks for the help.

I've been collecting stuff to start doing straight wall cartridges. have been collecting projectiles and saving brass on my 375HHmag.. and the 458's.. just fell into this 4570 stuff sooner.. so it will be my test 'cases' so to speak.

I am going to load to trapdoor specs.. might try trailboss.

but would love to look at BP equivalent too.

i see hornday reccomends a pyrodex load.. but I'm not familiar with that pyrodex

would love to hear about bp equivs for loads. figure they might be like cowboy loads with some of the cast proj's I have pulled..... easier on the shoulder.. less pressure..e tc. and use the trailboss for the jacketed stuff.
 

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Using the seat/crimp die on a 45/70.

Back the seater plug all the way out.

Run a belled case all the way up.

Screw the die down until it hits the case. The crimp shoulder is now touching the belled case mouth.

Back the die out a half turn.

Put a charged case with a bullet on it in the shell holder and run it up. Screw the seater plug down until it stop. It is now sitting atop the bullet.

Lower the ram a half inch or so and screw the seater plug down some.

Run the ram up. The bullet should now be pushed slightly into the case.

Lower the ram. Examine the bullet. Based on how much further it needs to be seated, screw the seater plug down some more.

Raise the ram, seat the bullet some more, lower the ram examine the cartridge, lower the seater plug some more, raise the ram, etc. etc.

Do this until, upon lowering the ram and examining the cartridge, you find that the bullet is seated to the correct depth.

Back the seater plug all the way out.

Screw the die in a quarter turn. Raise the ram, lower the ram, check the crimp on the cartridge.

If it needs more crimp, screw the die in another quarter turn, raise the ram, lower the ram, examine the crimp.

Continue doing this until you have enough crimp.

Raise the ram. This holds the die and prevents it from moving while you tighten the lock nut. Now the die is set for the correct crimp.

While the cartridge is still in the die, lower the seating plug until it stops. It is now sitting on top of the bullet nose.

Remove the cartridge and screw the seating plug in another sixteenth to an eighth of a turn.

Your die is now set.

Place a charged case with a bullet setting in the mouth in the shellholder and raise the ram. The bullet will be seated and the crimp will be applied at the same time.

Easy peasy lemon squeezy. Once you have the die set up, you can fly. The initial setup just takes a while.
 

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Lube your brass --- The 45-70 has a bit of a taper. The die has no carbide ring like straight wall (.45 colt,.357) revolver dies.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
ok.. so it's actually single stage... eat and crimp in 1 function.. just like i do my seat/rollcrimp on my bottleneck brass then.

I was envisioning a 2 stage procedd with seating and then crimping.

thanks

that will be easy.. it's pretty much what I'm already used to!



Using the seat/crimp die on a 45/70.

Back the seater plug all the way out.

Run a belled case all the way up.

Screw the die down until it hits the case. The crimp shoulder is now touching the belled case mouth.

Back the die out a half turn.

Put a charged case with a bullet on it in the shell holder and run it up. Screw the seater plug down until it stop. It is now sitting atop the bullet.

Lower the ram a half inch or so and screw the seater plug down some.

Run the ram up. The bullet should now be pushed slightly into the case.

Lower the ram. Examine the bullet. Based on how much further it needs to be seated, screw the seater plug down some more.

Raise the ram, seat the bullet some more, lower the ram examine the cartridge, lower the seater plug some more, raise the ram, etc. etc.

Do this until, upon lowering the ram and examining the cartridge, you find that the bullet is seated to the correct depth.

Back the seater plug all the way out.

Screw the die in a quarter turn. Raise the ram, lower the ram, check the crimp on the cartridge.

If it needs more crimp, screw the die in another quarter turn, raise the ram, lower the ram, examine the crimp.

Continue doing this until you have enough crimp.

Raise the ram. This holds the die and prevents it from moving while you tighten the lock nut. Now the die is set for the correct crimp.

While the cartridge is still in the die, lower the seating plug until it stops. It is now sitting on top of the bullet nose.

Remove the cartridge and screw the seating plug in another sixteenth to an eighth of a turn.

Your die is now set.

Place a charged case with a bullet setting in the mouth in the shellholder and raise the ram. The bullet will be seated and the crimp will be applied at the same time.

Easy peasy lemon squeezy. Once you have the die set up, you can fly. The initial setup just takes a while.
 

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Yeah, I thought, from your question, that was all you wanted to know.

But I figgered that, if you already knew how to set it up, this wouldn't hurt, and if you weren't quite sure, a step-by-step might help.
 
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