585 HE

Discussion in 'Large-Bore/Small-Bore Rifle/Shotgun' started by hubel458, Apr 24, 2014.

  1. hubel458

    hubel458 Active Member

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    Here is picture of the first 585HE done and shooting in Australia.
    A nicely stocked Ruger #1, nice dark grained stock.
    It is owned by the poster, ''tankhunter'' on the AR forums.
    Built by his smith who has a reamer.
    Guys there can get cases from Bertram, and there will soon
    be more reamers there. He has got a CH4D die set.
    There is a company there now making 585 barrels,
    Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland.....
    Mcgowen is making barrels here.

    [​IMG]


    585HE, The Second Load Of Cases In Production....
    First load was 3 barrels, second three times as many.Ed

     
     
     
     
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  2. hubel458

    hubel458 Active Member

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    We get asked about recoil. Guns are weighted a little, thick pads,
    can be ported, use moderate loads, they shoot nice...Moderate/hunting/target
    loads still much more energy than 577NE. And can be had without costing a
    years pay.

    Versatility. Most none elephant hunters can use on lighter game, for
    example, shoot lighter .585 Minie bullets, which load for about 75 cents each,
    once you have cases. Great for target fun, hogs, deer, etc... Cases
    last forever. We can load to any power level we need or want.
    There are more variety of .585" bullets, jacketed,turned, lead, than any other
    caliber over 458. Here are about a third we have found..
    Including some extra long and heavy for whisper, subsonic type load,
    with 4000 ft lbs energy. That's huge energy for subsonic cartridge

    [​IMG]

    Asked about using in a #1, And it's perfect case for the Ruger #1.
    We got 2 in FBW falling blocks made.
    The few #1s ever done in 577, they had to relieve
    metal behind the action shoulders that breach block
    rests against because of rim. Ours we don't have to and the #1s
    extractors I've seen work better with belted case than big rimmed.
    Ours holds more powder, cases built for extreme pressures.

    [​IMG]

    Case doesn't need special made shellholder, number 31 RCBS fits fine.
    Dies available now are CH4D, 3 die set, with one inch thread.
    It is a straight belted case that holds up to 190gr of doublebase powder.
    To bottom of most bullets. It has effiencies of 37+%, where necked cases
    in 50cal trying to get same energy, are about 29%.

    The loads tested at high pressures about 65,000 psi, when extracting, the
    weight of the bolt after opening pulled cases out. We've fired moderate
    loads in singleshots that we mono-blocked barrels into and the cases fall
    out after firing. Here is a nice single with 585HE in it.

    [​IMG]


    Here is picture of first 585HE put in MRC PH. Ed

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2014
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  3. Albtraum

    Albtraum Well-Known Member

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    dats a big gun! I have no plans on shooting any endangered species any time soon though.
     
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  4. hubel458

    hubel458 Active Member

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    It is good for all species we like to hunt. With lighter bullets for deer, hogs,

    heavier tougher ones for dangerous big stuff. Ed
     
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  5. Alpo

    Alpo Well-Known Member

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    What's with that divot in the head, there? untitled.JPG
     
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  6. hubel458

    hubel458 Active Member

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    That is one of first cases I made many years ago and has had a lot of

    test loads through it, about 30 firings. Rims got scarred when extracting

    and resizing a few really high pressure loads. But it is still a case that

    sizes back to specs and can be fired. AND The new cases are tougher yet and

    tested over 65,000 psi and the weight of the bolt pulled them out

    after bolt turned open.Ed
     
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  7. hubel458

    hubel458 Active Member

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    We've put some of the 585HE bolt guns in composite and Hogue
    stocks, and they are rugged for extreme weather. And they
    don't break under heavy loads.

    And with their hollow butts very easy to add weight to take up
    recoil. If lead and epoxy added to a complete fill of the hollow,
    too much weight, so I found a nice cheap substitute. We started
    using rubber coated mouse balls that we have a big pail of.
    They are steel with rubber coating, and right weight.
    And won't rattle with coating, and we hold them in tight with
    a piece of dense foam pressed under butt pad.

    [​IMG]

    We get asked about how much speed potential we have. And
    we start by mentioning cases can hold 190-200 gr of ball powder
    with the bullets loaded out.long. 200gr settled good in picture.

    [​IMG]

    And more fun shooting, using 4 black powder substtiute pellets
    under a Minie bullet. Nice cloud of aromatic smoke,
    Pictured is 4 54cal pellets under the Minie. Ed

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. hubel458

    hubel458 Active Member

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    In a related 585 caliber size we made the 24ga FH, and lengthened 24ga chamber to 3 inches.
    The barrel of our 585HE is .585" bore and rifled 24ga bore, are same size. And some of
    58cal Minie bullets available to buy or cast are .585-.687" and work in the 24ga case fine.

    Now we found a fast, easy way to get 24ga brass cases, just get 577NE brass and reduce
    the rim from .750" to 24ga size of .720" and re-stamp casehead 20ga . Using 3" 577 brass.
    We made 24ga chamber for 3" case, brass fits and the regular 24ga 2.5" plastic works also.

    [​IMG]

    Our 585HE has same overall loaded length as a 505 Gibbs.
    Holds up to 190gr ball powder under bullets...And any gun that can be
    set up for Gibbs can feed the 585HE. The long bolt actions work,
    like Enfield, BBK, Savage, Ruger, MRC PH, etc, and it is tested in break actions
    and falling block actions where length doesn't matter...

    First picture is the 585HE in a NEF we mono-blocked a 585 barrel into.

    Second picture is couple cases loaded with CEB solid turned brass bullets.

    Third picture is 585 in a FBW falling block action we adapted to fit into one piece stock. Ed

    [​IMG]..


    [​IMG]


    .[​IMG]..
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2014
  9. CHW2021

    CHW2021 Well-Known Member

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    Gives me a headache just thinking of being near that bear when it goes off, nice, but not for me.
     
  10. hubel458

    hubel458 Active Member

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    What we want is the bear to have instant headache.

    WE get asked about whether the 585HE is a DD due to being
    over 50 cal, and no it is not, as we applied for and got a
    sporting cartridge exemption few years ago.

    First picture is base view of cases new and old. On the left is the
    4 new ones that come with no headstamp that I stamped,
    and the 6 new ones in the middle has a 585 stamp.
    They got a barrel full without stamp and guys can wildcat
    them and put their own headstamp on..

    Second is side view with some in # 31 holders.No special
    holders needed. .Notice how uniform belts are on the new
    shiny ones. Dark ones are ones I made years ago.

    Third is one with bore rider bullet in with others behind. Maybe make
    a great long range target/hunting cartridge.Like using Barnes bullets
    Got a guy setting up one with long heavy barrel for that.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Cases are made super strong, made in the same factory run as the super
    high pressure Cheytac cases. The base of our case is same size ahead of
    belt as 408 Cheytac/505 Gibbs bases. Done with same cups and draws,
    uses different header, bunter, and sizer. Here is picture of the one we made
    and the factory one sectioned showing the strong built inside corners.
    These are not old style balloon head junk cases.

    [​IMG]

    They and CH4D have die sets, Manson makes reamers, and they have some.
    Reamer specs all set and in the chambers made with them, the cases
    extract at the highest pressures.
    Here is pic of one set with 585HE in a Greener GP..Ed

    [​IMG]
     
  11. hubel458

    hubel458 Active Member

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    In the pictures above you see the older first cases I made from Nyati
    cases and other cases that were Nyati clones. These were straight basic,
    long, untrimed cases, so I could get the longer case we wanted.

    We get asked about the process of doing it and here is picture sketch
    showing original case, a case with the start of a belt step, and finally
    a case after it is swaged and sized. Note the belt diameter ends up the
    same as the base diameter of the original brass. These cases we made
    years ago was how we got the 585HE started and tested and some guns
    done. This process can only work with original cases that have a thick
    corner radius to leave plenty of thickness ahead of the belt. In doing this
    process with different wildcats we have found cases that wouldn't work.

    [​IMG]

    Ourcases have a diameter that works with regular .700" dia bolt guns,
    without extreme machining on the bolt, as opposed to 577NE and Trex.
    Here is picture of our case held in a Ruger bolt, as an example..

    [​IMG]

    And our case is large enough capacity to get the power, without being an
    oversize, soft case. Thicksided cases relative to size of the case are much
    harder to deaw harden the heads and the lower body back up to proper
    strength, because of the extreme annealling needed, in the drawing
    and heading operations in the mfg process.
    Our cases are made with same cups and draws as the ultra high pressure
    Cheytac cases, and our real high pressure tests show they perform with
    no extraction problems. We tested 70,000 psi loads.

    [​IMG]



    We have experimented with black powder type of loads and the
    Minie bullets, The Minies we use are the ones measuring .585".
    Also for reduced loads with lesser amounts of powder we found
    that 24ga wads work perfect in the case, like in this picture.

    [​IMG]

    WE did couple guns in smooth barrel to test hollowbase Minies.
    Found that they work for shot in our case. Holds 3/4 oz of shot.
    Put a 24ga card on top and glue it in.

    [​IMG]

    The one setup in the the NEF, with a 585 barrel monoblocked
    into it and gun weighted, with thick pad, is the first in TX
    and there is video put on ytube by the owner-- URL below-- Ed

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypaUdwQGAc
     
  12. hubel458

    hubel458 Active Member

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    Feb 13, 2006
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    First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankhunter with his Ruger #1.

    If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide

    next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed

    [​IMG]


    I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise, figuring out an
    extractor is a problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga
    one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger
    than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one
    on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed

    [​IMG]
     
  13. hubel458

    hubel458 Active Member

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    In the process of checking out all bullets/slugs in 585 size caliber,
    it lead to the idea of the little brother of our 585HE, a 24ga FH.
    Very suitable for shotgun only deer areas, with a very effective load.
    And a huge supply and variet of bullets and slugs.
    Same rifled bore as our 585HE, same barrels work. And they
    have big supply of barrels, so we don't wait like for 12ga FH ones.
    Using brass cases they get loads like 577NE which is same bore.
    And many guys like idea of 577/585 size without spending
    10 grand. 650gr at 2000 and 540 gr at 2200 fps not too bad.
    And for lighter non-African dangerous game we use a variety of
    lighter 58cal saboted and lead Minie bullets as well as heavy ones..

    First is picture of a Minie bullet with a seal we made from 24ga
    BPI brushwad, Seal fits up inside the hollowbase of the Minies.
    We make them cutting BPI brush wads in half, without the cushion.

    [​IMG]

    Next picture is of 28cal Hornady ML sabot with .452" pistol bullets
    of 250 to 300 gr in them for lighter high speed load, for 24ga FH.
    Nice for deer and target fun. And all these will
    still shoot in 585HE also.

    [​IMG]

    Next picture is idea for the 585HE Whisper subsonic load with long,
    real, heavy bullets, shown with dummy bullets in the cases.
    Idea came from an experimenter, Bret in MN, and with a 1600 gr
    bullet at subsonic 1050 fps gives 4000 ft lbs, a huge amount
    over other subsonic cases guys have made. And can have subsonic
    loads with the regular 750 gr bullets also 900gr, 1000gr, 1200gr, etc.Ed

    [​IMG]
     
  14. hubel458

    hubel458 Active Member

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    Here is 585 FBW falling block with Hogue Knoxx Compstock.
    That stock helps reduce recoil in this lighter gun. Ed

    [​IMG]

    Here is some of the barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.
    Most of the McGowens profiled and few are straight blanks.
    Others from another place in paper wrap are the slow twist and
    others are smooth .In back are some of the cases and die sets.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. hubel458

    hubel458 Active Member

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    Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro
    Express rimmed case, that many big game hunters like. Usually
    set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga
    size to 577NE, to the 585 Nyati with the picture of Ross Seyfreid
    shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses
    off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over,
    to our 585HE the strongest yet.

    The 577NE is an offshoot of the 24 gauge caliber, only they went
    eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short
    cases and black powder, cases built like shotgun cases, called the
    577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, with black powder,
    then on to drawn brass cases, then to 577 BP Express. then
    to 3" cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet of
    .570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet
    diameter ended up at .585". This bore diameter of cartridge guns
    and muzzle loaders it is real interesting on how they developed
    and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider
    was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all
    over the British Empire, by the millions.

    Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have a
    24ga FH, a l regression to earlier times, by taking 577NE brass, and
    reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And
    stamp the cases 24 ga.

    For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing
    the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions, and finding
    reasonable rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, same for 24ga.
    The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are
    a third the cost of 600NE brass, or getting turned case made.

    Info about the power in types of guns normally set up with 24ga FH,
    break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug
    goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case.
    Now using the better, heavier 3" brass we got, we can increase speed
    to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles
    energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel
    gun, gets us near 2 1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which
    actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size.
    So makes relatively smaller bore shotgun. 24ga, with 458WIN power.
    .Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc.

    Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga
    and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed