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Discussion Starter #21
"Speed improves penetration" isn't a myth. It's a generalization, and at pistol speeds, it is often correct. You can look at data from +P handgun rounds, compared to standard pressure, and you'll see the difference. Same mass, more speed, deeper penetration.

On top of that, people are hijacking this thread. I didn't ask for people's opinions on ballistics. I have zero interest in that. I just wanted to know if I was stuck at 1088 fps, and it turned out I could do a lot better.
 

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NO pistol round has an advantage. NONE. .22LR and .32 Auto are below all the common pistol rounds, but 9x19 = .38 Super = .357 Sig = .40 S&W = .45 Auto. Stop pissing over kinetic energy. Pistols, even the mega magnums, don't have enough to matter.
So with this in mind, we should ALL venture forth with our Colt Woodsman, High Standard Victors, Ruger MK II & III, S&W Kit guns & Model 17s, and just focus on making surgically precise hits on the bad guys. And one of them kills or maims someone due to a stoppage failure, we'll just shrug resignedly and say to ourselves, "A bigger calilber wouldn't have mattered". Cold consolation to the injured and the dead.

With all due respect to the memory of Mr. Elmer Keith (whom I STILL admire greatly), the .45 Colt vs. .30-06 comparison seems pretty "apples & oranges". It violates the ceteris paribus (all factors being equal) basis of meaningful comparison. Was the .30-06 projectile a cast round nose, as the .45 Colt likely was? Were the projectiles of equal mass (weight)? Perhaps if Mr. Keith had compared a .452" 200 gr. LSWC @ ~1200 f/s from the .45 Colt vs. a .308" 200 gr. LSWC (!?!) from the .30-06 at half-again or twice the .45's velocity, I'd give the comparison a bit more credence. Without more information, it is easy to imagine that too many things were not at all equal (besides velocity, the independent variable here), and the comparison is...well...far too subject to interpretation.
 

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I'd answer that but don't want to hijack the thread anymore. I'll keep real world experience to myself.
 

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"Speed improves penetration" isn't a myth. It's a generalization, and at pistol speeds, it is often correct. You can look at data from +P handgun rounds, compared to standard pressure, and you'll see the difference. Same mass, more speed, deeper penetration.

On top of that, people are hijacking this thread. I didn't ask for people's opinions on ballistics. I have zero interest in that. I just wanted to know if I was stuck at 1088 fps, and it turned out I could do a lot better.
I'm very sorry if I contributed to hijacking the thread. It was not my intention. I just wanted to be clear that, while I advocate more powerful rounds for self-defense, the 9x19 can be improved from a marginal cartridge to...well, "better-than-marginal" with judicious hand load work-up and projectile choice. For those who are willing to try it, their endeavours are (probably) not in vain. Ballistically, "more" is always "better", down range, so long as it doesn't unduly strain the platform.
 

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>So with this in mind, we should ALL venture forth with our Colt Woodsman, High Standard Victors, Ruger MK II & III, S&W Kit guns & Model 17s, and just focus on making surgically precise hits on the bad guys. And one of them kills or maims someone due to a stoppage failure, we'll just shrug resignedly and say to ourselves, "A bigger calilber wouldn't have mattered". Cold consolation to the injured and the dead.

Dear unable to read: I clearly stated that .22LR and .32 Auto were below all the other pistol rounds but guess what--they aren't as far down as YOU seem to think. Remember it was something like around std pistol rounds were 30% effective and the true mouse cartridges were about 20% effective.
Get a BFG revolver in .45-70 and be done with it already. God, you ask us and then you argue with us with no facts but your own ideas for support.
PS: #1 assassin cartridge is the .22 LR. Use what the Pros use.
 

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A bit snide and caustic, aren't we?

Ooops....I'm hijacking again...
 
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Discussion Starter #27
So with this in mind, we should ALL venture forth with our Colt Woodsman, High Standard Victors, Ruger MK II & III, S&W Kit guns & Model 17s, and just focus on making surgically precise hits on the bad guys. And one of them kills or maims someone due to a stoppage failure, we'll just shrug resignedly and say to ourselves, "A bigger calilber wouldn't have mattered". Cold consolation to the injured and the dead.
I have actually wondered if .22 LR wasn't a better choice for a good shooter. Great penetration, a little expansion, and potentially much better shot placement with more rounds. Eight rounds in the head and three in the crotch in two seconds might be better than two center-mass 9mm shots.

Not recommending it, but I do wonder.
 

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Dear unable to read:
Oh, I read it just fine.
FIRST, you write this:
NO pistol round has an advantage. NONE.
THEN, you write THIS:
.22LR and .32 Auto are below all the common pistol rounds, but 9x19 = .38 Super = .357 Sig = .40 S&W = .45 Auto.
Sounds to ME like the common pistol rounds have an advantage over the .22 LR and the .32 ACP, and your first statement is contradicted by your second. Are you unsure of your first statement, or the second? Are you unsure of the same statement NOW, that you were, then? OR, are you even sure that YOU were NOT "unable to read" (as you accuse ME of being) that article right?

Your snide and abrasive tone, which seems to arise when you've been refuted or found to be caught up in your own conflicting argumentation, is nearly legendary. It does not, however, serve as a basis for defense of your arguments. It DOES instead, clearly signal frustration at being bested. Perhaps you should see someone about that.
 

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Not that big of an advantage. Sorry, but you really don't understand informal writing.
None of the pistol cartridges have such a big advantage that they make all other cartridges useless.
Personally, you started the whole abrasive tone.
Now, let's kill this thread.
 

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If it's got to that point.
Done.
 
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