A point of view from An American Afgan

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ruffitt, Feb 27, 2003.

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  1. ruffitt

    ruffitt Guest

    Jan 28, 2003
    (9/18/01 3:19:33 pm)
    A point of view from An American Afgan

    Written by an Afghani in the US

    I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to
    the Stone Age." Ron Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?"

    Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the
    belly to do what must be done." And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.

    I speak as one who deeply hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. My
    hatred comes from first hand experience. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters. But the Taliban and Bin Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps."

    It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this
    atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.

    Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban?
    The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.

    We come now to the question of "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone
    Age". Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that. New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide.

    Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't
    move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs would not really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time.

    So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with
    true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there
    with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what
    needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks.

    Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through
    Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going.

    We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.

    And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he
    wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the West. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam
    and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the West wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that?

    Unfortunately, Bin Laden does. Anyone else?

    In Peace,

    Tamim Ansary

    rules for survival: Sight alignment, Breath control, & Trigger Squeeze

    Posts: 52
    (9/18/01 3:45:40 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: A point of view from An American Afgan
    Exactly what I would say if I were trying to dissuade the Americans from doing anything besides a ground invasion.


    You simply can not believe anything - especially from a Muslim. Sorry. Call me racist. Call me prejudiced. Call me pessimistic.

    But call me safe.

    Heard on the news today that there was a man from the Middle East arrested for ties to those "suspected" in the hijackings. Reportedly, there is evidence of electronic communications , financial ties, etc.

    Now, this bastard was here for 5 years - living the "good life". He was a leader among his peers. He was nearing the end of a 5 year internship.

    AS A RADIOLOGIST !!! That's right. Five years he was here, living among us as a respected professional. Nobody had a clue.

    So, tell me again why I should listen to anyone from that region of the world ?

    Plus, and I know this stretches the bounds of reality ...... if these twisted idiots are sick enough to kill themsleves and countless thousands of innocent individuals, what makes you believe their poverty stricken lifestyles are anything other than aother one of their mistaken "sacrifices" ? Another road to their heaven ?

    I don't believe it, not for a second.

    Another great Freedom - the Right to think freely.


    Posts: 655
    (9/18/01 4:00:57 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: A point of view from An American Afgan
    Point and counterpoint. This is how debates are conducted.

    Not every muslim is a radical terrorist. Not every christian is a sainted soul. Do you realize most wars since recorded history have been fought over religion?

    My point of view is that a grave injustice has been done that cries out for vengence. Yup - I'm an old "eye for an eye" person. You hit me, I'll do my damndist to knock you flat on your back, so that you'll think twice about doing it again!

    Hopefully, the military and our leaders will be able to figure out how to conduct these retalitory strikes with sergical precision, lessening the "collateral" damage to absolute minimums, and the least possible injury to our personnel. This goes for all involved in the dastardly attacks - from the money men financing the activities, to the governments and government leaders sanctifying the terrorists to the actual terrorists themselves.

    As GWB says, this may take years to accomplish, however, once started, we should have the resolve to finish it.
    Keep below the ridgeline!

    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 88
    (9/18/01 5:01:05 pm)
    | Edit | Del
    Re: A point of view from An American Afgan
    HERE, HERE! Damn, Kdub, your just wrote what I was just thinking. Are we unknown twins from different mothers?
    Heard about the idiot in Mesa who went gun happy. Real sorry to hear that.

    Endeaver to Persevere

    gun runner john
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 267
    (9/18/01 5:20:05 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: A point of view from An American Afgan
    One point that must remain clear, even if we strike back, we have to be prepared to spend billions of dollars a year for many years if we expect to make progress against terrorism. I actually don't expect we'll ever win that war, our objective should be to make it hard for them to do anything but plant a car bomb here and there. It's truly unrealistic to think you can stop a group that's willing to die in the execution of a terrorist act! You can cut their support away, and deny them the resources to plan and carry out an attack such as happened last week, but you'll never stop them completely, unless you kill every one of them.

    (9/18/01 5:30:09 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: A point of view from An American Afgan
    This holy war mentality is turning into some holy shite.

    I would like to think that other nations could proctect themselves from the thugs and Nazis in this world so their country would prosper and have peace. But how in the hell can we as a nation be their policeman and sugar daddy with all the bucks. Pakistan is holding out its hand for siding with us? I'll bet they help us...in a pigs eye.

    Its the middle ages again, Christianity is going to have to go toe to toe with Islam again...bullshite...we don't some claric wackos channeling us into that crap again. Hope Bush is not a 2 demensional thinker, and has some good help in his cabinet.

    God help us in this America. I guess we are the worlds last hope.

    (9/18/01 5:43:19 pm)
    Re: A point of view from An American Afgan
    Here is an example of the real enemy we face. I do not fear foreign powers but am scared of Socialists who strive to defeat us from within.I heard today that the Anti-war movement is already starting in some of the more liberal parts of the country. How long will it be before we see a nation devided like we did during Vietnam ????

    Wednesday, Sept. 19, 2001
    Intolerant Chapel Hill Censors Patriotic Sign

    The left-wing university town of Chapel Hill, N.C., forced a restaurant to remove a banner proclaiming "God Bless America, Woe to Our Enemies" after one resident - and at least three Town Council members - complained.

    Councilman Bill Strom led the effort to censor the message at Top of the Hill restaurant, according Monday's Herald-Sun newspaper.

    "Personally, I found the language offensive," he said. "I didn’t find the ‘God Bless America’ offensive and appreciate everyone’s show of unity. But the implied tone of ‘woe to our enemies’ is not the message I have been giving my child. Nor do I feel it’s an appropriate banner to hang in the middle of downtown Chapel Hill."

    Councilman Jim Ward had this to say - and this is a direct quotation from the Herald-Sun: "The idea of the sign was fine with me. I just would have used some White-Out to change some wording or remove the one line."

    Councilman Kevin Foy fretted that "the unfortunate effect could have been to create a feeling for some members of the community that they were unwelcome."

    The anti-choice bureaucrats tried to excuse their censorship by hiding behind Chapel Hill’s sign ordinance, which allows downtown business to post temporary placards only if they measure 6 square feet or less. The restaurant's sign was bigger, they say.

    The town’s enforcement of its sign ordinance mainly in response to complaints invites abuse, noted Top of the Hill’s owner, Scott Maitland.

    "Because it depends on a complaint in order to be enforced, it becomes de facto content-based and therefore a First Amendment violation," he told the Herald-Sun. "I can see every Food Lion and Harris Teeter violating the ordinance every day of every week, but apparently no one is concerned that you can buy pork chops for $2.99 a pound."

    Two questions:

    How come so-called American Civil Liberties Union screams and moans if something obscene does not receive taxpayer funding, but it never seems to be around when something patriotic is censored?

    What will it take to convince lily-livered liberals that America does indeed have enemies and must stop coddling them if it is to survive?
    The phone number of Chapel Hill's Town Hall is 1-919-942-8541.


    (9/18/01 5:47:12 pm)
    Who, I say "Who" put 'em in Power?
    The Taliban, Good Ol' Uncle Sam with our tax dollars. The Soviets were wacking the shit outta them until we dumped the LAW( Stingers) rockets and all the other sophisticated weapons in there. It was a Border problem for the Soviets, not so for us. It became the Soviet " Vietnam" and we cheered it on.
    Now, it's a different story, Huh? Cast your bread upon the waters and sometimes you get back the whole damn sandwich. Our track record of supporting the wrong side is 100%. We cannot be the policeman for the whole world.

    (9/18/01 6:21:52 pm)
    Re: Chapel Hill, NC ?
    About 2 maybe 2 1/2 hours away from me.

    Bondai - you're not from there are you ?

    I was there once. Nice, quaint, "artsy" little town, Struck me as being mostly a college town. "Preppyville, NC" ... or maybe "Yuppyville".

    Kinda surprised that an attitude like that would be tolerated in the South. (before I go any further, I'm originally from Buffalo, NY - been here only a year).

    Just last year they took the "Rebel" flag off the state capital building in South Carolina. This area is pretty proud of it's heritage ..... not only the rebel part, but the pride of being American as well.

    That a handfull of people can force their will on the public is simply amazing in a "democratic" land.

    And who were they going to make "feel unwelcome" ????? Enemies of the State ? Terrorists ? Those who have ties to the terrorists ? I'll tell you what - I can make them fell a hell of a lot less welcome than any sign can.

    A true American, regardless of national heritage, would not feel threatened or unwelcome. I see it as yet one more cry or plea for unity among the citizens. (but then, I'm an American, not a politician)

    "The Moral Majority"

    I don't remember who said it, (seems like it may have been Groucho Marx for some reason):

    "The moral majority is neither."

    (9/19/01 9:14:32 pm)
    Patrick...BUFFALO? Small world, so am I...

    Going back to what she said originally, she is actually correct with everything except what she said about fighting across Pakistan.

    The Afghan people actually are pawns, starving pawns as it is.

    The Taliban IS an illigitimate government, making MOST if not all their money from drugs and terrorists, they don't even LIST a per capita income or GNP for Afghanistan, it is officially "0."

    Except for military assets of the Taliban, there are NO targets...and assets are a few BMPs, a few T72s, and a couple batteries of Arty. It's not like Iraq, where they HAD targets and infrastructure...certainly NOTHING worth a Tomahawk...

    And Kimber, don't want to sound like I'm lecturing, but you are playing right into Bin Ladens strategy...a few years ago, he said he would one day make Americans hate and attack each other, split us from within, just like the Balkans...whenever we say ANYTHING like "You simply can not believe anything - especially from a Muslim. ...," etc, you are doing EXACTLY what he wants you to do...

    Bush going to a Mosque, heck, even us talking nice about Arab-Americans, drives him wild.

    And he's got history on his side...in late December '41 well meaning people all over the US were saying EXACTLY the same thing about Japanese-Americans, and we ended up putting them in Concentration Camps, stealing their lands and businesses and property, and didn't even trust them to fight against the Japs...all the while not even caring that some German Americans were openly showing support for Hitler prior to Dec 8th, and we let THEM join the Army, WHY?

    Because their eyes weren't slanted? Because they were WHITE?

    And in your own state...German and Italian POWs were served inside restaurants when they were out on work parties, while their guards, who happened to be BLACK U.S. Soldiers, had to eat outside....My Dad, did this as a guard and driver, around Ft Bragg, but was white, probably saw nothing wrong with it!

    He knows more about our fears and innate rascism than you will even guess....

    And if you think the anti-war crowd was the ONLY home-front problem we faced in Vietnam, why did the KGB/StB funnel MORE money to the Black Panthers and POSSIBLY the Southern Christian Leadership Conference? The riots at home spilled over to the foxholes in 'Nam....

    All I'm saying is THINK.

    I was in a barbershop yesterday, and some ignorant hilljack says, "We just got too many damn foriegners in this country!"

    I cut him off pretty darn quick, saying "We're ALL foriegners...don't you forget it."

    Don't get me wrong, I don't expect ANYBODY to embrace anybody with eyes closed...yes there HAS to be some racial profiling...see a Middle-Eastern type near me in an airport, I'm going to be on a heightened state of awareness, be looking for an out, watching his every move, but he doesn't DO anything wrong, I'm treating him EXACTLY like I would treat you...

    And I'm sure as heck NOT going to suspect ANY of the Dr. Patels in my town, (and there are a TON of them! ) ,because I know they are INDIAN.

    Well, I didn't win the Powerball, so I still collect Russian Crap and variants thereof. ( And am darn happy I can!)

    (9/19/01 10:17:30 pm)
    Re: Intolerance
    And Polish, we might remind the history-challanged that the most decorated unit in the U.S. Army during WWII was the 442nd Regimental Combat Team.....made up entirely of Japanese Americans, most of whom were recruited from those infamous internment camps.

    We're a nation of immigrants.....all of whom were "different" when they first came here.

    "We're Americans....not because we live in America, but because America lives in us."

    (9/19/01 10:35:46 pm)
    Re: Intolerance

    There are extremists in every culture.

    Unfortunately, here in Mesa, Az, a jerk started popping caps at anyone who looked like they were from the middle east. He managed to gun down a man from India who was wearing a turban. Shot him several times in the back. Then, went to a gas station convenience store and began pumping lead into the store where some Lebenese worked. Then did a drive-by at a home with some Afgans in it. Police arrested him at his home, which is just about a mile and a half from mine. He's now charged with lst degree murder and a federal "hate crime". Sure makes me proud to be WASP!

    We don't need "incidents" like this, folks. Like Polish said - everyone here except native Americans migrated here from someplace else at some point. Hell, even the natives came over the Bering Land Bridge, so I guess we could call them immigrants from Asia!

    Let's concentrate on those wishing the US ill and fostering terrorism for the sake of sadistic pleasure. I have no more compassion for them than for the bug pests that I either spray or step on.

    No matter what religous affiliation (if any) they have!
    Keep below the ridgeline!

    (9/19/01 10:42:00 pm)
    |Re: Intolerance

    I know you all b*tch about liberals well here's a real gun toting PATRIOTIC liberal to pot shoot at if you so desire. I have friends that are of Arabic desent and I fear for them. Bin Laden is a mastermind at stratedgy and he is trying to divide the country as the old saying goes "divide and conquer". Anyone with teenagers knows this trick.
    Granted I am at a greater state of awareness than I was a week ago, but that is NOT going to make me leery of everyone I meet in my day to day encounters.
    In GWB's old west theme I will gladly be one of a posse but I refuse to become one of a LYNCH MOB! Be p*ssed off at Bin Laden all you want but please make sure you channell that hatred towards the guilty parties. Don't allow Bin Laden to use our predjudices against us!


    (9/19/01 10:54:02 pm)
    off the subject
    a little off the subject....


    I thank my father every day.... =-)

    (9/19/01 11:16:13 pm)
    Re: off the subject
    Darn, that little liberal got away before I could get the lead...

    Thanks Bree!

    And yeah, thank a vet. No matter what they did in no matter what war, every chance you get!
    Well, I didn't win the Powerball, so I still collect Russian Crap and variants thereof. ( And am darn happy I can!)

    (9/19/01 11:43:51 pm)
    cute Mike!

    As I said in an earlier post, this guy bothers me due to the fact he's a fanatic and #2 I am a female. In his world I have no value. In my world I'd kill the b*st*rd! Useless female. Come within shooting distance and see!

    (9/20/01 7:41:54 am)
    Re: didn't mean to imply
    Sorry, I guess I should have made myself a little bit clearer. I wasn't saying go out and round up anyone with a tan .......

    What I meant was that we should be more than just aware - be cautious - even to the point of being suspicious.

    Again, think about the well respected radiologist with definite ties to Bin Laden.

    The illiterates that go around shooting people just because they look different shouldn't have guns. Sorry, one prerequisite to gun ownership is brain ownership. Obviously, these few managed to beat the system.

    As far as "don't believe what any Muslim says ...." hell, I don't 100% believe what anyone tells me .........

    I guess the message I was imparting was BE AWARE, BE CAUTIOUS, BE SAFE.

    again, I apologize for any misconception.

    the real fredneck
    (9/20/01 8:41:13 am)
    Re: didn't mean to imply
    Bree here(my alter ego)
    I misunderstood your post as well. sorry. At this point in time it is soooo frustrating because there are no real pieces of real estate to aim at. There are a lot of folks that think "kill them all Let God sort them out!" I'm afraid that is not the answer.
    The essay at the first of the post had a point. If we bomb the Afghani people we aren't going to hurt the Taliban at all. Covert ops in this case are the best alternative in locating and eradicating the poison that grows within their borders.
    Just my humble opinion.

    (9/20/01 9:10:27 am)
    Re: didn't mean to imply
    Well, here`s my short sided thoughts on this.

    First, until now terrorism has had that cool idea.....thing going for it. Almost romatic, whether you agree or not....that is the case.

    Second, in order to succede in this venture, you must remove the above. It will no longer be cool to be a terrorist or to harbor them.

    Third, remove them with "EXTREME PREJIDUCE", don`t just stuff`um & cuff`um.....give them three hots and a cot. Make it known, you will not survive....PERIOD!!! No questions, if you are in that camp.....YOU DIE!!!

    The idea is to make it so costly to anyone involved, it`s just not worth it anymore. When they transfer money.....seize it all and any accounts from the said sender or receiver. Get tough and GET TOUGHER!!!!

    (9/20/01 9:39:55 am)
    Re: the thing that gets me
    Is that they are even considering taking Bin Laden alive.

    WRONG MOVE !!!!!

    Just for a moment, let's consider that it is possible to capture him alive and well. What happens next ?

    Some of his followers hi-jack (lowjack ?) a cruise ship with thousands of people on board and demand his release. Or bombs start going off in major cities and continue to go off until he is released.

    No Sir.

    What needs to happen is that someone on the "capture" team needs to be the "rogue" soldier - you know, the guy who was always kinda quiet, but has gotten into trouble. When Bin Laden is in custody the "rogue soldier" needs to "snap" and blow him away.

    No "release him or we'll blow another bomb". There still might be repercussions, but no Bin Laden to give back to them.

    the real fredneck
    (9/20/01 9:24:58 pm)
    Re: the thing that gets me

    Calling John Rambo!!

    Calling John Rambo!

    They drew first blood!

    Sorry, couldn't resist.

    (9/20/01 9:37:36 pm)
    Re: the thing that gets me
    I dunno, you can argue both ways...

    The sight of a pathetic penniless ex-hundred Millionaire in jail, with NOBODY able to spring him might be worth more than a martyr to the cause.

    I support the death penalty, but for example, what would the "Legend of Charles Manson" be if we fried him? He is a pathetic impotent footnote of history now, even if he deserved to die as much as anybody.

    The battlecry "Remember Bin Laden" will cause even more young fanatics to die for him, and make his successor's job easier to rally them...

    Him in jail, ALIVE...makes all his lieutenants just that, his seconds, the power struggle between them would make them impotent.

    Just a thought, need to look at all angles, with no emotion...

    And this is War, losses happen, they hijack a cruise ship to free him, it exposes another cell to kill...

    Well, I didn't win the Powerball, so I still collect Russian Crap and variants thereof. ( And am darn happy I can!)

    (9/21/01 6:47:03 am)
    Re: the thing that gets me
    PS, I agree with the concept of Bin Ladin in jail. May very well be the best thing for us. Don't kill him and make a martyr out of him. Stick him in solitary confinement with one meal a day for the rest of his life. Do the same to all of his buddies we catch.

    But, the urge definitely is there to execute him and make him suffer while we are doing it!!

    (9/21/01 8:29:44 am)
    Re: the thing that gets me
    I personally like the idea of a photo op of US Marines playing soccer with Bin Laden's head as the ball, you could caption it "Wanna Play?"

    (9/21/01 9:14:33 am)
    Re: the thing that gets me
    My feeling on that nice touchy-feely comments on the original post.....PUT A SOCK IN IT!!!!!!!!!!!
    America, we are the symbol of Freedom and Liberty......

    (9/21/01 10:28:17 am)
    Re: the thing that gets me
    LTS...I agree. Its way past the time for talk about what we should have done or it would have been better to do this or that. This is about the survival of America and our way of life. There is no middle ground on this. We have been straddling the fence for too long. We are are either going into this with everything we have and follow through, or we might as well pack it up and go home right now. Those who do not stand with us, stand against us, no grey areas.

    (9/21/01 10:34:49 am)
    Re: the thing that gets me
    There is not a chance in hell that he would or could be taken alive.

    (9/21/01 11:20:58 am)
    Re: the thing that gets me
    So much the better.
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