Addicted to Drama??

Discussion in 'The Fire For Effect and Totally Politically Incorr' started by mncarpenter, Mar 15, 2010.

  1. mncarpenter

    mncarpenter Member

    Nov 14, 2009
    I'm curious. Everyday someone, or myself posts some radical statement about the US being overrun or collapsing from with-in, or states seceding, or armed revolution, socialism as a new way of life, national bankruptcy, etc. etc,ad nauseam. I just replied to a previous post and have posted a couple of times that a tax revolt/strike would affect change. Others have similar, or radically different solutions. The problem is, solutions to what, exactly? Socialism? Corruption in DC? Politicians re-writing the Constitution? Corruption at local levels? Wars fought for profit/greed?

    Or has anything actually changed, in our lifetime. I'm 53, and looking back( in my lifetime), we've had the Cold War, Vietnam, Woodstock, flat-out crazy and horribly corrupt presidents and politicians,Ponzi schemes,( anyone remember the pyramid letter schemes?) huge recessions, economic booms, changes in technology that damn near keeps up with the Jetsons. Desert Storm, 9/11, 9/12, lonely terrorist Jihadists, a Jihadist president, school shootings, rampant unemployment,unsustainable birth rates(the Muslims outnumber the world in birth rate by about 3:1) and federally funded abortions coming right up.
    Survivalists and Glenn Beck telling us to buy gold and bury seeds in sealed packs. People hoarding thousands and thousands of rounds of ammunition, for when the SHTF. Most soldiers are unlikely to expend (in combat) as much ammo as some urban guerrilla wannabes have stashed. Some guys have 50,000 small pistol primers stashed, and shoot 200 hundred rounds a year. I saw a post on a Bigfoot forum( yep a Bigfoot forum, and these folks are serious-I know others saw the same post) about Bigfoot, elves and fairies braiding horses manes-really.
    We're still here. At the moment, we're still free, at least the MOST free of any other place in the world. We have an amazing document in the Constitution, that if we get off our asses, can be used to force our politicians to protect our freedom.

    The part I'm curious about, and a little unsure about personally, are things really all that different, or are we, me, just addicted to the drama of it all.
    I'm sick of watching Fox 24/7 to see what new horror awaits us.
  2. carver

    carver Moderator Supporting Member

    Jul 28, 2008
    DAV, Deep in the Pineywoods of E. Texas!
    If ya don't see it coming, then ya get blind sided! And it is coming!

    When did all of our political problems start? Do a little research on your own. Here is a place to start. Karl Marx published his manifesto in 1848, and died in 1883. There is a correlation:

    The Progressive Movement was an effort to cure many of the ills of American society that had developed during the great spurt of industrial growth in the last quarter of the 19th century. The frontier had been tamed, great cities and businesses developed, and an overseas empire established, but not all citizens shared in the new wealth, prestige, and optimism.

    Efforts to improve society were not new to the United States in the late 1800s. A major push for change, the First Reform Era, occurred in the years before the Civil War and included efforts of social activists to reform working conditions, and humanize the treatment of mentally ill people and prisoners.

    Others removed themselves from society and attempted to establish utopian communities in which reforms were limited to their participants. The focal point of the early reform period was abolitionism, the drive to remove what in the eyes of many was the great moral wrong of slavery.

    The second reform era began during Reconstruction and lasted until the American entry into World War I, 1914. The struggle for women's rights and the temperance movement were the initial issues addressed. A farm movement also emerged to compensate for the declining importance of rural areas in an increasingly urbanized America.

    As part of the second reform period, Progressivism was rooted in the belief, certainly not shared by all, that man was capable of improving the lot of all within society. As such, it was a rejection of Social Darwinism, the position taken by many of the rich and powerful figures of the day.

    Progressivism was also imbued with strong political overtones and rejected the church as the driving force for change. Specific goals included:

    The desire to remove corruption and undue influence from government through the taming of bosses and political machines;

    the effort to include more people more directly in the political process;

    the conviction that government must play a role to solve social problems and establish fairness in economic matters.

    The success of Progressivism owed much to publicity generated by the muckrakers, writers who detailed the horrors of poverty, urban slums, dangerous factory conditions, and child labor, among a host of other ills.

    The successes were many, beginning with the Interstate Commerce Act (1887) and the Sherman Antitrust Act (1890). Progressives never spoke with one mind and differed sharply over the most effective means to deal with the ills generated by the trusts; some favored an activist approach to trust-busting, others preferred a regulatory approach.

    A vocal minority supported socialism with government ownership of the means of production. Other Progressive reforms followed in the form of a conservation movement, railroad legislation, and food and drug laws.

    The Progressive spirit also was evident in new amendments added to the Constitution, which provided for a new means to elect senators, protect society through prohibition and extend suffrage to women.

    Urban problems were addressed by professional social workers who operated settlement houses as a means to protect and improve the prospects of the poor. However, efforts to place limitations on child labor were routinely thwarted by the courts. The needs of blacks and Native Americans were poorly served or served not at all — a major shortcoming of the Progressive Movement.

    Progressive reforms were carried out not only on the national level, but in the states and municipalities of the country as well. Prominent governors devoted to change included Robert M. La Follette of Wisconsin and Hiram Johnson of California.

    Such reforms as the direct primary, secret ballot, and the initiative, referendum and recall were effected. Local governments were strengthened by the widespread use of trained professionals, particularly with the city manager system replacing the all-too-frequently corrupt mayoral system.

    Formal expression was given to progressive ideas in the form of political parties on three major occasions:

    The Roosevelt Progressives (Bull Moose Party) of 1912

    The La Follette Progressives of the 1920s

    The Henry Wallace Progressives of the late 1940s and early 1950s.

  3. mncarpenter

    mncarpenter Member

    Nov 14, 2009
    Oh, I can see it coming. Just like Dad could, and his Dad before him, when sweeping social changes were made in their lifetimes. My Grandpa died from old age at 100 yrs old. 1895-1995-pretty sure he saw a few changes, in fact remembered Sitting Bull's tribe traveling through their homestead when he was a kid, visiting from Canada to S Dakota. My Dad is 82. He's seen a few changes, himself. Never hoarded ammo,never gotten too hysterical. Has lived his life according to his beliefs, and never voted for a Democrat, in fact I remember when Mom and Dad voted for Goldwater, I was a young'un and we stayed up late watching the election news.
    I can see it coming. I have a small stash of ammo, and components for a few thousand rounds, myself. I have a 200 acre farm to retreat to, back home. I know how to butcher , can bake my own bread, and make a mean apple pie. Our family can band together and survive very well, and if armed people come calling they will face some pretty good shooters, from a hilltop in the distance. Might happen. Might not. Remember the bomb shelters ,back in the 60's and 70's?
    I think we tend to get a little radical in our thinking. Being aware doesn't mean being an urban guerilla.
  4. 45nut

    45nut Well-Known Member

    Jul 19, 2006
    Dallas, TX
    You're not paranoid if they're really after you!

    I know the feeling, because it is very stressful. I do believe I will live to see a 2nd rev.olu.tion. I only hope it is big enough to make the difference for the future of our Nation. See ya on the other side.
  5. keepitlow

    keepitlow Active Member

    Oct 22, 2009
    Born L.A.-NYC Second Home-Rustbelt Home Base
    Yes, things have changed. Things have become worse and more corrupt in the US during my 55 years. Just look at how our food supply has deteriorated?

    And yes the US is a great place to live, but its greatness is in constant decline. So no telling where it is going?

    My survival mentor says to prepare for the unthinkable one must first think the unthinkable.

    All this has to be done within reason.

    But what is reasonable for one, is unreasonable for we should remember we only have to please ourselves with our efforts.

    We're doing something near to impossible, which is to predict the future. Tons of IF's, AND's and BUT's that could happen. We just don't know.

    As futurists we try to anticipate future events and the direction the world is headed in and as survivalists we try to prepare for those circumstances.

    Whenever you are confused, always look at the trend.

    Things can go in 3 directions...get better...get worse...stay frozen.

    This helps remove some of that confused or wishful thinking and can help settle the war raging on in your head.

    But, this tool has to be used for the general US outlook to be effective. For instance say your a rich banker and you just got your bonus of 5,000,000 dollars which is 1,000,000 more than last year. The question does not apply to your life getting better. It applies to ALL of America.

    For no matter how rich one person gets, they still have to come outside once in a while to deal with the rest of the world.

    As far as drama? Sure it gives one something to occupy themselves with. But again, it also goes back to 'prepare for the unthinkable one must first think the unthinkable.'

    Getting back to the food issue.

    Who would ever have thought finding real, honest food would be so tough nowadays. I have to drive 125 miles to buy raw milk and grass fed beef. If I don't get lost, I can make the round trip in just under 3 hours.

    As far as costs?

    Raw milk $9.60 a gal. Grass fed beef for stew cheapest cut $8 a pound. Tack on the $24 gas for the car.

    Now, I don't eat or drink much of it cause of the cost and distance. (mostly distance issue) But our food chain keeps decomposing like hell and it is getting harder to feed oneself these days if one is looking for basic untreated natural foods. Here is a rundown on grass fed beef for those that may not know.

    The beef and poultry are force fed unnatural diets high on genetically modified corn. (proudly advertised as an 'all-vegetarian diet' on the packaging.) The all grain diet, coupled with growth hormones make the cattle outgrow grass fed cattle more than two to one.

    The animals are packed like sushi into confined animal feeding operations and wade though oceans of their own manure. This close quarter confinement and loss of roaming ability also makes the cattle put on weight much faster than grass fed cattle.

    The unnatural diet raises hell with their digestion and they have to be given loads of antibiotics to not die. Their digestive tracts culture drug resistant e.coli thanks to the antibiotics and it gets into / onto the meat when they are slaughtered.

    As a bonus, a lot the good omega 3 fatty acids have been taken out of grain fed cattle's meat as well as cows milk, cheese, yogurt, butter etc, since they are not fed their natural diet of grass.

    Pick up a half gal of organic milk that advertises omega 3. It most likely will be fortified with algae oil. What is left in grain fed meat is an imbalance of too much omega 6 fat that fuels our heart disease problems in the US and not enough omega 3.

    The grain fed meat has to be radiated to kill the e.coli but the manure is still high in e.coli and gets into our other food products such as vegetables / spinach / almonds / apple juice etc. These have to be radiated / pasteurized / steam heated / chlorine bathed to try and kill the e.coli as well.

    But the antibiotics still make their way into our diet through eating the grain fed meat, drinking the milk, eating the cheese, yogurt, butter. As well as our water supply from people taking the antibiotics as medicine and eating the tainted meat. As humans excrete waste it gets into the water and we drink or bath in it and absorb it up...what a mess!

    Here is a good vid on the water issue...get it from your library.

    Here is a source on food podcasts to keep up with what is killing us off.
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2010
  6. keepitlow

    keepitlow Active Member

    Oct 22, 2009
    Born L.A.-NYC Second Home-Rustbelt Home Base
    This is a good example. Life expectancy in the US if going down...not up.

    And I usually don't correct people on their writing, but put some paragraph breaks in your posts.
  7. keepitlow

    keepitlow Active Member

    Oct 22, 2009
    Born L.A.-NYC Second Home-Rustbelt Home Base


    But no matter how you slice it...


    Is hard to fix without this:

    IT'S NOT THAT SIMPLE TO DO A 180...Without compulsive spending and conspicuous consumption funded by unaffordable debt, we would fail as a country. Since our economy if fueled 70% by the consumer, we must stay in debt and consume by any means necessary to keep the Ponzi scheme from collapsing.

    We must make shoddy products that self-destruct quickly - so new products are in constant demand to keep the workforce of drones working. All the while squandering natural resources. But on a positive note, we are increasing the business of the landfills.

    We must not grow our own food. We must buy poisonous food from chemical laden farms. Our concrete jungles could never hope to allow anything else from their inhabitants.


    Would you rather eat an embalmed potato or a live potato? The store bought 'Green Giant' red potato vs home grown live KB potato. Both stored for 7 months in my root cellar.

    And we must squander fossil fuels as fast as possible to keep the economy booming. What would all the tourists traps from Las Vegas to Florida do without the travelers? And the multitude of business that depend on travel along the pilgrimage routes?

    On an a more global level, lets say everyone becomes voluntary simplicity and frugal squirrel devotees. We recycle, reuse, repair and just say NO to buying more crap. If we stop buying all the stuff that America imports from China - who keeps the 1.3 billion plus people in China from starving, so they do not go back to old ways of trying to take over the world?

    We can see we have created a time bomb. Even the highest level brainiac economists can't fix what ails us. Our whole system is based on an unsustainable model that will eventually collapse no matter how much money that is printed up by the Fed. (...they don't even need to print money nowadays, all that needs to be done to create billions is to magnetize a silicon chip!)

    Tony Benn's take on things:

    We can see in the pop chart above, the population was pretty steady over the centuries. People lived within natures boundaries. They grew their food, burned wood for fuel and ate the game and fish nature provided...until the age of fossil fuels.

    Whale oil or wood was the prevalent fuel up to that time. As whale oil was running out, coal and liquid coal (crude oil) came on board. Then petroleum / natural gas based fertilizers made cheap food possible.

    Fossil fuels allowed people to move from an agrarian from of life to an urbanized city lifestyle that removed all the hard and dirty work of growing and producing one's own food. Fossil fusels also made possible many areas of life extending improvements to humans. And people spread to all corners of the planet and flourished...but by an artificial and non sustainable means.

    What happens when something is running at an unsustainable pace?

    It must slow down to a sustainable pace - if it is to keep moving forward steadily and sustainably. Slow down = Dieoff.

    It would be one thing if we all reverted back to rural living, burning trees for fuel and housing and living within our comfortable means allotted to us by nature, as our ancestors did back in the day. But seven billion people can't burn the trees!

    When we live out of balance with natures intended means there is a price to pay to come back in balance with nature. And the price usually extracts pain from us in the adjustment process. Now renewable energy will replace some of fossil fuels benefit to mankind. But don't be under the delusion that they are a seamless and fungible replacement. There is NO replacement for crude, NG, coal and uranium...all fossil fuels.

    Even if we did find out how to burn water for energy, petrochemicals make up a large portion of crude's importance to mankind. Roughly 9% of every barrel of crude goes to petrochemical use.

    If we stopped burning crude this instant, we would still suck the wells dry, albeit not as quickly, just from petrochemical use. So even if we all stop driving, we will just be postponing the inevitable depletion of crude oil.

    A partial list of products made from crude:

    Solvents Diesel Motor Oil Bearing Grease
    Ink Floor Wax Ballpoint Pens Football Cleats
    Upholstery Sweaters Boats Insecticides
    Bicycle Tires Sports Car Bodies Nail Polish Fishing lures
    Dresses Tires Golf Bags Perfumes
    Cassettes Dishwasher Tool Boxes Shoe Polish
    Motorcycle Helmet Caulking Petroleum Jelly Transparent Tape
    CD Player Faucet Washers Antiseptics Clothesline
    Curtains Food Preservatives Basketballs Soap
    Vitamin Capsules Antihistamines Purses Shoes
    Dashboards Cortisone Deodorant Footballs
    Putty Dyes Panty Hose Refrigerant
    Percolators Life Jackets Rubbing Alcohol Linings
    Skis TV Cabinets Shag Rugs Electrician's Tape
    Tool Racks Car Battery Cases Epoxy Paint
    Mops Slacks Insect Repellent Oil Filters
    Umbrellas Yarn Fertilizers Hair Coloring
    Roofing Toilet Seats Fishing Rods Lipstick
    Denture Adhesive Linoleum Ice Cube Trays Synthetic Rubber
    Speakers Plastic Wood Electric Blankets Glycerin
    Tennis Rackets Rubber Cement Fishing Boots Dice
    Nylon Rope Candles Trash Bags House Paint
    Water Pipes Hand Lotion Roller Skates Surf Boards
    Shampoo Wheels Paint Rollers Shower Curtains
    Guitar Strings Luggage Aspirin Safety Glasses
    Antifreeze Football Helmets Awnings Eyeglasses
    Clothes Toothbrushes Ice Chests Footballs
    Combs CD's Paint Brushes Detergents
    Vaporizers Balloons Sun Glasses Tents
    Heart Valves Crayons Parachutes Telephones
    Enamel Pillows Dishes Cameras
    Anesthetics Artificial Turf Artificial limbs Bandages
    Dentures Model Cars Folding Doors Hair Curlers
    Cold cream Movie film Soft Contact lenses Drinking Cups
    Fan Belts Car Enamel Shaving Cream Ammonia
    Refrigerators Golf Balls Toothpaste Gasoline

    From this list we can see that we are massively depend on crude for our non sustainable lifestyle.

    It has been estimated that for the earth to sustainably support its population without fossil fuels a 90% dieoff must occur. I don't know if that is the right figure, but I do know humans could not live as they do unless it was funded by artificial means via fossil fuels.

    So if this dieoff happens, of course there will be great amounts of pain in the world. But it is natures intended balancing act.

    It also reminds us that nature does not bow to humans - it is humans that always bow to nature.
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2010
  8. keepitlow

    keepitlow Active Member

    Oct 22, 2009
    Born L.A.-NYC Second Home-Rustbelt Home Base
    People like guns cause it gives them a sense of power and control.

    Same way praying does.

    When people pray, they think they can sway some all powerful god into doing what they want. They never think that if god is can the imperfect human know better than the perfect god?

    And what would it say about this perfect god if it followed directions from the imperfect human? Yet people cling to this fantasy cause it makes them feel good.

    Sure guns are useful and important. But guns only go so far just like praying. In my local we have some wild turkeys and deer walking the streets. Sometimes I see flocks of 5 or 6 turkey and herds of 8 to 10 deer. But, how long would these animals last if the SHTF and everyone was out blasting away to eat?

    So maybe instead of having hundreds of guns one should seek balance and limit their supply of guns to a dozen or two and use the other time, space, money and energy to for other preparedness items.

    Here is an interesting article "The Myth of Self Reliance"

    Now even though being 100% self sufficient is near impossible. We can work towards preparedness for a variety of possibilities to make us more comfortable if and when trouble strikes.

    Survival is also about comfort...we try to be as comfortable as possible in uncomfortable circumstances. When we get too uncomfortable we can die. It is that simple.
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2010
  9. keepitlow

    keepitlow Active Member

    Oct 22, 2009
    Born L.A.-NYC Second Home-Rustbelt Home Base
    Sick of doom and gloom TV? ...Sure, do something else. But still keep in touch with what is going on in our world. Just don't be addicted to it, seek balance. Do something else with your time to build body and mind.

    I like yoga, inline skating, longboarding, dirt bikes, mountain bikes, hiking, rock climbing, kayaking, scuba, snow sports, mountain boarding, tree climbing, weight training.

    Anyone on this list can be prepared for a few weeks to a month without breathing hard and with little extra expenditure. Now if you got a family of 12 then maybe not so easy. But with me and my wife and part time live at home kid this is how it works

    First never forget you can live for many weeks or a month or more without eating before you die, but water is not so forgiving as food. You need to drink every few days at the least, even in cool, weather. And in hot can't go long without water.

    If you got $6 you can get enough emergency water for a month...unless you happen to live in the desert in summertime. One 16 oz bottle a day will keep you going, just don't overexert. Keep some 5 gal containers around.

    Beer is also a source of liquid and nutrition. Have a case or two round. One bottle of beer is about 140 calories and it offer some nutrition since it is brewed from grains, malt and yeast.

    We belong to Sam's club we buy our water in case lots of small 8 and 16 oz bottles I don't want to be bothered shopping, so I buy 5 to 7 cases to last me for a couple months.

    I am not hoarding water for emergency - yet I have water for emergency. Same with pasta sauce, flour, oatmeal, rice, beans, grains, powdered milk, soap, shampoo and the rest.

    Just learn to eat what food you bulk up on. And don't forget rotate your stock!

    Sometimes we jump the gun with survival mania and do it in an unbalanced way.The way I work my survival preparedness is to do the footwork, prepare, educate and hold it on the back burner unless needed. Until that need, I just live life the best I can.

    Without that mindset one cannot be at peace with life, as we are always looking for doom and gloom every day...every hour...every minute. And some survivalists seem to be disappointed if the don't get disaster!

    This gives you your base. If things seem to be heading to code orange, step it up a notch. If code red is about to hit, implement your plan to the fullest.

    So you switch gears from being a short term survivalist to a longer term one as things deteriorate.

    One example.

    I usually stock 50 jars of pasta sauce, When it gets down to 20 - 30 jars I restock. If code orange set in this would go to 100 jars. If code red showed up it may be 150 jars. (code colors are my own example).

    Of course, sometimes code red+++ comes without any notice, then store shelves are all empty by the time you arrive. So you will have to balance all these concerns to your own satisfaction.

    But, one important note. Hoarding food is not the same as being able to produce food. So I would suggest anyone interested in survival seriously learn to grow their own as well as be master foragers if your local is conducive for foraging.

    Here are few garden books to get you started:

    Crockett's Victory Garden

    The Self-sufficient Suburban Garden / BTW, Jeff Ball has many excellent DVD's on growing food, get em at your lib.

    Gardening When It Counts: Growing Food in Hard Times

    Country Wisdom & Know-how

    Farming for Self-sufficiency

    Four-Season Harvest

    Backyard fruits and Berries

    Successful Berry Growing

    Growing Uncommon fruits

    Vegetable Growers Handbook

    Backyard Orchardist

    Seed to Seed

    Pruning and Training

    Secrets of Plant Propagation

    Encyclopedia of Gardening

    Backyard Food Production DVD

    People Places and Plants DVD series. (A mix of flowers, trees and food. Got to dig through the 5 DVD's for the food production info.)

    The time to start learning how to grow food was yesterday and the longer you wait the more behind you are.

    Take growing fruit trees for instance - they take a few years to get established and produce some meaningful fruit. But many problems can occur during that time and the trees may have to be replaced before established which will add more time to the equation. And to top it off, many fruit trees are biennials...they produce fruit every other year! But if your just getting started you wont know this for a few years will you?

    Even with vegetable gardening it may take a couple of seasons to learn the basics and produce quality and meaningful amounts of food to 'try' and live on.

    And I can tell you from experience, it is hard to live just on what you grow...especially if you live in the cold zones of the US where you have to grow in short seasons.

    Panic is for those not prepared. We develop self confidence by mastering the skills needed to overcome any situation that arises to threaten our life.

    You still have some valuable time left to prepare for what awaits you down the road.

    We are in the 'Indian Summer' of a carbon based world. Don't wait until the winter sets in to start work on your preparedness efforts....Semper Paratus
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2010
  10. mncarpenter

    mncarpenter Member

    Nov 14, 2009
    I guess I need to skip a line?

    My right index finger just twitched.:rolleyes:

    Guess I gave the impression that's all I do...not.

    I think that is the point, whether you're talking about doomsday, or political uprisings or ACORN, or are we realistically ever going to have time to expend that 50,000 rds of 9mm and 45 ACP you have buried under your basement floor??

    I like corn-fed beef, grew up on it, raised it, named a few. Tastes better than stringy ol grass fed sagebrush cattle. That grass probably has fertilizer on it, because cattle can take down an acre of grass pretty quick. I have a cousin who ranches in western SD, says a cow/calf pair requires 40 acres of grass. Thats a lot of grass, in pretty good country and you can bet they fertilize a bunch of it. Have to, because it requires a lot of hay in the winter to keep those cattle healthy ( yep, they vaccinate them too, losing cows/calves is an expensive proposition) and fat, so they can sell those calves to the Nebraska and Iowa cattleman who fatten 'em up on corn. I guess as far as prices go,there ain't much profit in a grass fed steer or heifer that has reached market weight,so yep, gonna have to sell that beef for a premium.

    Kind of like the chicken you find in local stores. Can't find good ol' anti-biotic raised chicken anymore, so now chicken is twice the price of pork. Guess what? There is a lot of chicken just sitting there, on their refrigerated shelf. Folks will buy beef and pork before they pay 5-6 bucks a lb for chicken.

    I guess driving 125 miles to eat free range chickens,grass fed beef and drink raw milk makes sense in this "'Indian Summer' of a carbon based world" for some, but not to me. If we all ate grass fed beef, demand for grass fed beef would rise, and grassland would disappear.

    Realistically, who's feeding 300+million people in this country? Those awful farmers, like my great-granddad,granddad,and Dad.Not the rugged farmers featured in Mother Earth News.

    Incidents of issues with our food source and supply are greatly exaggerated when compared to the staggering amount of food produced and consumed every day, week, year.

    I think a lot of folk are going to be disappointed when mid term elections are held as usual, and Barry is limited to one term in '12. We may have some sweeping social changes, or not. We'll know pretty soon.
  11. al45lc

    al45lc Active Member

    Mar 8, 2010
    colorful colorado
    Since the dawn of human history, people have been predicting doom and gloom, hence the expression "Nothing new under the sun".
  12. jbmid1

    jbmid1 Well-Known Member

    Feb 3, 2011
    Tucson, AZ
    Carver's got it right in post #2. There's way too much Marxist thinking and policy making being done by our govt.
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