American vs. non-American

Discussion in 'AR 15 Forum' started by hogger129, Dec 7, 2009.

  1. hogger129

    hogger129 Well-Known Member

    Nov 29, 2009
    So I want to have a little debate here about the pros and cons of American made military rifles vs. non-American made military rifles. Such as the M16, M1 Carbine, M1 Garand, M14, M4, etc, etc, as opposed to non-American made such as the AK-47, AKM, AK-74, the Chinese copies, the 5.56 chambered AK-styles, other styles of assault rifles that aren't the usual US-spec or Russian-spec arms. Which is better in certain ways? Which is not better in certain ways? Which do you prefer? Let's just keep it clean and friendly please. Doesn't necessarily have to be absolutely "rifles" either. Let's discuss the assault rifles/machine guns too. Like the M60, as opposed to like the RPK.

    Which do you think is the best assault rifle? Which is the best plain old rifle? Which is the best machine gun?

    Whoops. Just noticed I put this in the wrong section if the moderator wouldn't mind moving it to the correct one. Thanks.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2009
  2. carver

    carver Moderator Supporting Member

    Jul 28, 2008
    DAV, Deep in the Pineywoods of E. Texas!
    I persnoally think that the American made guns are of much better quality. That does not mean that they are better. .308 is .308 in any gun. My problem is the cost of American made guns. Colt made rifles in the Military style will cost you $3K+, while something like the Saiga will cost you around $600. It doesn't matter to the bullet, if the gun functions, then the Saiga in .308 is just as good as the Colt in .308. Maybe not as pretty, but just as effective.

  3. Helix_FR

    Helix_FR Active Member

    Apr 14, 2009
    Imperial, MO
    I also agree, the American made weapons are more finely crafted but along with that they are also more complex. Non American military weapons are more rude and crude and are based on much simpler mechanics and tolerances. Many things have to come together properly for some of the American made guns to work right. There is a trade off though. You'll also find that the american made guns are more accurate and have better range b/c of there complex actions allow them to be and use every bit of energy in a efficient way. But if I wanted to dig a hole, drive a tent spike, toss it in a muddy lake to wash it off and come out shooting. Grab me a AK.
  4. Lotsdragon

    Lotsdragon New Member

    Apr 5, 2009
    Potosi, Mo
    Own two chinese made sks's you can see the casting marks on the reciever and bolt, no milling there, but the go boom everytime they are supposed to_On the other hand my remington 7400 has to be the prettiest weapon I have ever seen.It too has never failed to fire and its in the 30-06 caliber. I paid a HECK of a lot more for it than I did for the sks's but if the chit hit the fan I would depend on my remington.
  5. Shorty Bang

    Shorty Bang New Member

    Apr 18, 2007
    East Tennessee
    I am by far a red blooded red stated American, but our fellow patriot R. Lee Ermey did a show on this. With a lot of talk and jib jab the M16 won over the AK so said R. Lee....but you could tell he really knew the AK was a better rifle when it came down to reliability, care, and "knockdown power". The M16 won on full auto accuracy, rate of fire, and being American. I would go with the M16 due to the shear number of bullets one can fire, and the accuracy.
  6. CampingJosh

    CampingJosh Well-Known Member

    Sep 25, 2007
    Why have we only talked about American vs. Russian? Why have we left out European made guns like the FAL?

    I'd take an FAL over any of the American or Soviet surplus guns.
  7. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

    Dec 26, 2003
    Depends on Uncle Sam's whim every 3 yrs.
    The only forces that carry AK-47's are the one's that can't afford M4's, R-4's, G-3's, FAL's etc.

    The Soviets ditched the 7.62x39mm back in 1980. The M43 round has the terminal ballistics of a 9mm handgun. It sucks.

    They went to 5.45x39mm and it is on par with our 5.56mm NATO.

    Forget all the Vietnam M16 stories...that weapon may as well be a musket. The most lightweight, reliable, effective small arm you can get is a modern M4; it's got half a century of AR evolution behind it and going strong...we'll see if the SCAR can take that title.

    Comblock and Eastern rifles are built to be exported to poor countries to arm massive forces of poorly trained uneducated conscripts who'll outnumber their foe 10-1.

    Western rifles are built for small, well trained, volunteer forces that will be operating outnumbered 10-1.

    It's hard to look at modern American military hardware without including Europe...a very large chunk of our weapons is inspired by, licensed by, designed by, or imported to us from Belgium, Sweden, Norway, Italy, etc etc.

    The world is a small place: Israel mostly uses our M4, they licensed their Galil to South Africa as the R4 who is trying to arm with the CR-21 while exporting their R4 all over South America to serve beside and against M4's, Ak's, and FN's, and the Mexican army below our own border is armed with German G-3's, the Jamaicans carry British SA-80's.....and all of it by the way is chambered for yankee 5.56mm. Even China is switching over to 9mm NATO, which we all took from the Nazi's.

    To give the AK it's do, there are 96 common rifles inspired by the 47 and 74, including Sig Sauer, Kel-Tec, FN, etc.

    But never overlook this: You can't find a free country defended by an AK-74.
  8. uzim16

    uzim16 New Member

    Jul 29, 2009
    I used AK Chinese copies, don't like them at all. It's reliable, but not that much as the rumor. I think rifles using gas piston like G36 should be better than AK.
  9. kingnothingugm

    kingnothingugm Member

    Feb 7, 2009
    I think the answer to this question in't dependant upon the's dependant upon the opperator of said firearm(maint. experience with the firearm, preference...etc.etc). I personally love American made. In .308, 5.56 or .223, 9mm or .45. Give me American every time...although an sks is a must have.
  10. K1D_5150

    K1D_5150 New Member

    Jan 28, 2010
    Hutchinson, KS
    Should one stop and consider, the AK's we have here that are worth a dang are hybrids of american and com-block parts, to be legal with all the goodies it was meant to come with. I say get an AKM AND an AR. The AKM is hard to beat as a truck gun, as to the fact that if you are in town or having to jump out of your vehicle with a firearm you'll more than likely be within 30 yds of the threat, and you can poke through stuff the 5.56 wont. And the AR, particularly the M4 styled, is hard to beat as it can reach out and touch threats at a better distance than what is usually feasible with most patrol rifles running an intermediate cartridge, and at a greater rate of fire while sustaining superior accuracy. Two different schools of thought and each is the best of what they were designed for (in my humble opinion, if it counts for anything) and each is a legend in the world community. God bless our second amendment rights, and spoil the socialist agendas that would try to defeat them.
  11. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

    Jan 11, 2010
    Ok this is like comparing apples and brake pads
    two whole different worlds

    take the USA,

    manufacturing costs are not a thought of item any more
    R&D way way out in front
    you considered other things like ammo carrying capacity
    maintinace in the feild and service contracts ( read as ongoing income )
    income from these weapons is a big factor , maybe more than most realise

    the Soviet considered least ammount of machining to produce
    one of thier major refits was to allow a feild factory production
    (one factory was sent to vietnam in the early days but stolen off the 3 railway cars in china by the chinese)

    simple feild cleaning and repair or throw it away and get another was the attitude
    income was never a issue and so many "options" where never included as compared to the US rifles

    as for China
    its a AK or AKM clone
    as are Tobuks and the mid east varients

    so it boils down in recent times to a 1960;s design that had 5-6 revamps on the US side and a 1940's design with about the same number of revamps but for differing purposes

    its a differential of economic needs and political thinking reflected in a product

    but both are still in the same base cycle of revamping pretty old designs

    other places are looking at more modern designs

    like the P90
    M88 Styer ( ok but not great trust me)
    the PDW's

    various bullpup designs to give a smaller profile of the soldier while allowing full length barrels to allow the smaller 5.56 mm rounds and others to hit with the required force to be effective at the expected conflict ranges

    different thoughts behind the design again

    while a lot of thoughts are now turning to advanced munitions and thier delivery such as metalstorm and the Russian version Naskoi

    Naskoi has a lot of advantages

    its a combined projectile and explosive munition, like a grenade

    set the range, fire, and the thing will explode at that range, showering fragments in a kill zone of about 3 meters radius ( 2m to ensure a 90% kill)

    max effective range is only 250 meters but most firefights they expect are below this range

    it will not be a standard weapon but looking at maybe half a squad armed with these and half regular battle rifles

    metal storm is a financial based weapons system

    the idea there is to GIVE AWAY THE RIFLE, but sell the ammo in its preloaded format, this one i have worked on a lot as its a aussie idea but now there are so many varients but still awaiting a major US contract''

    so what is best?

    i'd say the one you have in your hand and know how to use and have ammo for and ongoing supplies

    of the modern battle rifles my choice in order would be

    AR10(7.62, Modded)
    AK47 (Modded)
    Styer M88
    AKM (Modded)
    M16 (Modded)
    FN FAL L1A1 B1 (F1 with 12G under attachment similar to M203, Modded)
    modded means modified to take avadnced sights s in the M4 and M88 styer

    beyond this it really dont matter in choice its how well i use what i have that will count.

    i like the stopping power of the 7.62's

    but most are unweildly, heavy and the ammo size and weight issues are a big consideration

    another 1.87 cents worth from down under



    ( some of our toys)

    Last edited: Jan 29, 2010
  12. Big ugly

    Big ugly New Member

    Feb 27, 2009
    Knoxville Tennessee
    Me personally I dont like the M16 type platform. It may be reliable, for a while. But as soon as the damn thing gets dirty it is prone to jams. I have heard people talk up their AR's and I just dont feel it. The 223 is a good hot round and the 308 is also. But the M16 platform when it heats up if fails. For me it has to be all about maintaining a rate of fire. As said in another post on this topic the Users of the American Equipment is liable to be out numbered. But in a hot climate sustaining heavy fire using hot rounds like the 223 and the 308 in the M16 platform is asking for problems.
  13. wpage

    wpage Active Member

    Aug 25, 2009
  14. sorral

    sorral New Member

    Dec 20, 2006
    I saw a show on The Military Channel, a countdown of the top 10 battle rifles of all time. The M16/AR platform came in second, but the AK came in a hands down first place. What other rifle can you put a handful of sand in the open it a time or two..and the darn thing shoots?!

    I personally went with the AR platform, I like the modular nature of the design.. and the "cool factor" slightly influenced me too.

    My only thought long as it is built in the USA, who cares where the design is from. As long as American workers are getting paid for building the componants and assembly it is then an American rifle.
  15. old semperfi

    old semperfi Active Member

    Aug 27, 2009
    i live in southern indiana,old country boy at hear
    someone else said it-apples and brake pads? the ar type and most communist weapons are meant to be used by largely both trained and untrained personel. they arent as accurate as the guns made by the free world such as the ars and l1a1s our rifles are meant to be used by riflemen that can clean and care for their guns.i must admit that the aks and their derivitives are much more dependable in extreem harsh conditions.they do go boom clean or otherwise. old semperfi
Similar Threads
Forum Title Date
AR 15 Forum American Spirit Arms AR-15 parts??? Aug 18, 2004