The Firearms Forum banner

Another home-made annealing apparatus.

3K views 12 replies 6 participants last post by  Indy Bob 
#1 ·
I saw this on a website and thought the guy had a good idea. I decided I might be able to make this from scrap materials I had. (I am a avid pack-rat). I am not equipped to make this of metal as I viewed it, so I made it out of scrap wood and a piece of 1"X1" aluminum. As in the photo, load a brass case into a hole drilled into the aluminum. There is a hole drilled in each end of the aluminum block to expose about 30 or 40% of the neck end of the brass. An "axle" hole is drilled all the way through at the center. There is a round wood "handle" to spin the block from the hole in the one end ..... to the other end.
1. Start by loading brass into the top hole, with the aluminum block on an angle, about a 10 or 2 o'clock position, rotate the block by turning the handle till the "NECK only" of the brass is being targeted by the tip of the flame from each burner tip.
2. When correct temperature is attained, (discussed later), rotate the block to about the 4 or 8 o'clock position. The heated brass will fall out and the other end of the block will be in position to load the next brass case.
NOTE: There was a lot of "adjusting" (removing wood or adding shims etc), to get the burner tips and the flame tips THE SAME distance and angle from the case NECK!!

NOW the discussion really begins! 1. Correct Temperature for annealing, 2. to cool in water or not. I read a lot of articles and there may be conflicting information out there so I am hoping that a few of you will voice your opinion on this matter and come to an agreed conclusion.

Here is what I did, and I am NOT saying this is perfect. It just seems to work for me.
I bought some "pricey" 750 degree F Tempilaq, a temperature sensing liquid. You might do searches for the cheapest. That stuff is a PIA to remove. Look at the photo and notice a small thin spot, painted on the case side. I stayed away from the neck and the shoulder as it is very hard to remove.
Info I read was; annealing brass happens at 800 to 900 degrees F. SO.. when my spot of 750 degree Tempilaq starts to turn a tan color at the side of the case, at the shoulder bevel, I rotate, and dump the brass out onto an old hand towel. Load the next brass case and continue. CAUTION: Never overheat the brass on the sides, especially near the head.
That is why I put 750 degree Tempilaq on the side up next to the shoulder.
(To cool in water, or not?)... The sources I referenced said that brass being different than steel, water cooling will neither hurt or help the annealing results. It CAN stop heat from migrating toward the head. I personally do not worry about this because I remove from the heat as soon as the Tempilaq starts to change at the edge of the side and shoulder. That is my decision BUT you need to search info yourself, for your own safety.
Indy Bob
PLEASE SEE PHOTOS ATTACHED.
HINT: Don't gob on Tempilaq..use a thin coat.
Use denatured alcohol and/or 0000x ultra fine
steel wool to remove.
Tool accessory Tool Machine Machine tool Clamp
Product Material property Chemical compound Liquid
 
See less See more
3
#3 ·
I saw this on a website and thought the guy had a good idea. I decided I might be able to make this from scrap materials I had. (I am a avid pack-rat). I am not equipped to make this of metal as I viewed it, so I made it out of scrap wood and a piece of 1"X1" aluminum. As in the photo, load a brass case into a hole drilled into the aluminum. There is a hole drilled in each end of the aluminum block to expose about 30 or 40% of the neck end of the brass. An "axle" hole is drilled all the way through at the center. There is a round wood "handle" to spin the block from the hole in the one end ..... to the other end.
1. Start by loading brass into the top hole, with the aluminum block on an angle, about a 10 or 2 o'clock position, rotate the block by turning the handle till the "NECK only" of the brass is being targeted by the tip of the flame from each burner tip.
2. When correct temperature is attained, (discussed later), rotate the block to about the 4 or 8 o'clock position. The heated brass will fall out and the other end of the block will be in position to load the next brass case.
NOTE: There was a lot of "adjusting" (removing wood or adding shims etc), to get the burner tips and the flame tips THE SAME distance and angle from the case NECK!!

NOW the discussion really begins! 1. Correct Temperature for annealing, 2. to cool in water or not. I read a lot of articles and there may be conflicting information out there so I am hoping that a few of you will voice your opinion on this matter and come to an agreed conclusion.

Here is what I did, and I am NOT saying this is perfect. It just seems to work for me.
I bought some "pricey" 750 degree F Tempilaq, a temperature sensing liquid. You might do searches for the cheapest. That stuff is a PIA to remove. Look at the photo and notice a small thin spot, painted on the case side. I stayed away from the neck and the shoulder as it is very hard to remove.
Info I read was; annealing brass happens at 800 to 900 degrees F. SO.. when my spot of 750 degree Tempilaq starts to turn a tan color at the side of the case, at the shoulder bevel, I rotate, and dump the brass out onto an old hand towel. Load the next brass case and continue. CAUTION: Never overheat the brass on the sides, especially near the head.
That is why I put 750 degree Tempilaq on the side up next to the shoulder.
(To cool in water, or not?)... The sources I referenced said that brass being different than steel, water cooling will neither hurt or help the annealing results. It CAN stop heat from migrating toward the head. I personally do not worry about this because I remove from the heat as soon as the Tempilaq starts to change at the edge of the side and shoulder. That is my decision BUT you need to search info yourself, for your own safety.
Indy Bob
PLEASE SEE PHOTOS ATTACHED.
HINT: Don't gob on Tempilaq..use a thin coat.
Use denatured alcohol and/or 0000x ultra fine
steel wool to remove.
View attachment 110166 View attachment 110167 View attachment 110168
The brass needs to be water quenched, in this regard it has properties opposite that of steel. Heat up steel and allow to air quench it becomes softer, heat up brass and air quench it gets really hard and brittle.
 
#4 ·
I used the tempilaq sticks. They are like hard crayon and won't require thinner later or shaking, etc over time. They will last forever. I use a sacrificial piece of brass to determine the time to leave in the flame. Take a fine tooth file and use the sharp edge as a scraper to scrape the neck only and then below the shoulder. The neck gets the 750 stick and below the shoulder is the 450 stick. Turns out I could of not spent the money on the 450 stick cause once the 750 turned, so did the 450. That held true for the 308, 7-08, and 223. The different headstamps will matter a bit from the range brass vs Norma and a little on the range brass vs the Lapua. Norma starts out softer than Lapua but as far as time under flame, they were close enough not to chase the difference. Besides once you go thru a few cases, the intensity starts to change as fuel pressure changes. Subtle at first, then later you need to adjust the flame or bottle position. That gets old, so use a bottle "X" minutes and record the time burned on the bottle. Later when you do another batch, you use the bottles w/ the ball parked same amount of fuel, and so on so you don't have to adjust the burner, just swap out the fuel tank. Test a tempilaq stick against the harbor Freight laer thermometer to test accuracy. Then you can use the Harbor Freight laser thermometer for case temperature. I use the annealeez. It does a nice job. I go thru the fuel and have to resort to a hand drill w/ socket after awhile as the brass needs closer to the brass than the machine allows.
 
#5 ·
Howdy drymag, ... You seem to have a very good knowledge of how to anneal and stay "true to the correct temperature". I used the Templiq sticks a couple years ago and from reading your post I know why they did not work for me. You roughen up the a small area on surface of a sacrificial case where you want to use the stick.
I could not get the stick to adhere to the brass and I should have thought of your trick.
That being said: I would like you (and others) to chime in on the subject of "To Quench-or-Not to Quench" after attaining the correct temperature. I have done searches on this subject and have seen so many different views on this. I want to make sure I am doing this correctly. I anneal for only 1 rifle, my 22-250. I do not shoot as much as many do...but when I go, I am a "wanna-b-benchrest shooter".:rolleyes:;). About 70% of my brass is Norma, and the rest is Nosler.

P.S. I am hoping I can get a good discussion going on this Quench subject.
IF you have any links on this subject, could you please post them too.
Thanks, .. Indy Bob
 
#6 ·
When I did mine, it was a batch of .220 Swift (that I no longer have) I followed the instructions that came with the annealing device I have. I took a high sided pan and put about 3/4" of water in it, then set the cases in standing up. I directed the flame from the device at the neck/shoulder junction and when I noticed the area just below the shoulder turn a dull brown, I knocked the cases over in the water to quench.
The device I have was purchased at/through the Woodchuck Den. It's made out of copper tube bent into a circle with about 8-10 holes/jets on the inner diameter of this circle. It attaches to the nozzle end of a propane torch. Another way to anneal your brass that I read about is to do this with/in a pot of lead. Grasp the case as close to the rim as you can with your thumb and forefinger, and dip the case in the molten lead up to the neck shoulder junction. When it gets too warm to handle comfortably, quench in water immediately. I haven't tried this yet, but sounds like it could work.
 
#8 ·
When I did mine, it was a batch of .220 Swift (that I no longer have) I followed the instructions that came with the annealing device I have. I took a high sided pan and put about 3/4" of water in it, then set the cases in standing up. I directed the flame from the device at the neck/shoulder junction and when I noticed the area just below the shoulder turn a dull brown, I knocked the cases over in the water to quench.
The device I have was purchased at/through the Woodchuck Den. It's made out of copper tube bent into a circle with about 8-10 holes/jets on the inner diameter of this circle. It attaches to the nozzle end of a propane torch. Another way to anneal your brass that I read about is to do this with/in a pot of lead. Grasp the case as close to the rim as you can with your thumb and forefinger, and dip the case in the molten lead up to the neck shoulder junction. When it gets too warm to handle comfortably, quench in water immediately. I haven't tried this yet, but sounds like it could work.
Those sound interesting. I saw the tube w/ holes and probably went that direction but didn't because I couldn't find the end already made or cost, a method of connecting the copper to the torch or something along those lines. That would fit my idea of doing this more cheaper. Then I came across the annealeez and liked the concept and it seemed the easiest so punted. The only rub for me is the amount of the machine when I think I could be doing it cheaper.
 
#7 ·
I can't say which is the best way. I just followed the directions of the inventor of the machine and watched his videos. Whether he is right or not, I can't say. I just repeated his method and it seems to work well for me. A good test is to measure the oal of the case, and measure using a comparator of the shoulder before and after annealing and see what's what. Then do a neck size only on one case and full length size on another and compare measurements of the case to see if it's reasonable compared to non-annealed cases responses to the same die condidtions. From a laymans test, it seems to be ok. I'm sure other methods that work for others is equally as good. So I guess you can try all the methods and test them out and see what works for you. There's bound to be a science in all this but it is well past me. If the inventor of the machine had done it differently, I would probably be doing it just the same now after doing compare n stare testing.
 
#9 ·
The thickness of the mouth of a brass case is so thin that it cools very quickly in air. You do not have to water quench your brass. If you were trying to anneal a 1/2" thick brass plate then it would be better to quench it in water. All a water bath does for your cartridges is add the extra and unnecessary step of drying them.
The only way to harden brass is by working it - there is no way to harden brass with heat.
 
#10 ·
Yes you do need to quench your brass after annealing it. If a 1/2" thick piece of brass needs it, then a piece that is between .010 and .030" needs it also, brass is brass no matter how thick it is. What do you mean, there is no way to harden brass with heat? I spent close to 20 years working with different metals, and this is how all metals were hardened or annealed. Heat, draw followed by some means of quenching, air, oil, water or combinations of types depending on the desired ends.
 
#11 · (Edited)
I just spent about 2 hrs. reading a LOT of posts and videos, scanning though many till I got to the part about "quenching in water", or cooling in room temperature. From what I found, this is a subject that will most likely NOT be answered here. I did NOT find scientific proof from a reliable source. I am not saying it is not out there, but just that I spent 2 hours and found only "hear-say" comments. (I stayed away from Wikipedia). Just a rough estimate: It was probably 60% yes quench, and 40% "not necessary".

The information at this link is from a champion shooter and a shooting product manufacturer ..... NOT a scientific source UNLESS they did find said source before writing this article.
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
Below is from their article, near the start:
Brass, on the other hand, cannot be made harder by heating it--ever. Brass is always made softer by heating.
The only way brass can be made harder is to "work" it. That is, the brass must be bent, hammered, shaped or otherwise formed. The hardness of brass can be controlled by annealing for a specified time and temperature.
Unlike steel, which will be made harder when it is cooled rapidly, brass is virtually unaffected when it is rapidly cooled. Annealing brass and suddenly quenching it in water will have no measurable effect on the brass
.

NOTE: I did see the info above at more than one referenced website.
In changing my thinking, to be on the safe side and to stop "heat migration", I just might drop the case into a water pan.
Indy Bob
 
#12 ·
With a tad bit of modification and a little more aluminum you could add an adjustable 'slide' and use it to slowly push the shells through and have them automatically dump into a bucket of water..or are they supposed to air cool?
 
#13 ·
You might have posted your reply about the same time as I wrote the post above yours. The question to me about "air dry" is written about in my post before yours.
I really don't believe water quench is necessary, but to be on the safe side, I might start doing it.
Thanks, Indy Bob
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top