[kevinh]

Pardon if it's already been asked. I promise I DID try to find the answer without making another post.

If I'm working up a load and the tables prescribe a specific case, primer, powder and bullet, do I have to specifically stay with the manufacturer?

For instance;

If I'm loading a .223 in a Remington case with a Remington 7 1/2 small rifle primer with the prescribed gr. of Hodgen Varget powder and the 55gr Sierra SPT bullet, do I have any option to use ANOTHER manufacturer of case and primer? I certainly understand to use the prescribed Hodgen Varget powder to the prescribed gr. with the Sierra SPT bullet. But can I use the CCI small rifle primer, or the Winchester small rifle primer? Can I use another manufacturer for the case also? Or do I STRICTLY USE the consumables prescribed within the data charts?

Again, understanding that I will use the EXACT POWDER with the EXACT powder charge and the EXACT bullet associated with that charge.

Thanks in advance,

kevinh

 

[LDBennett]

You do not have to stay with the same brass and primer just as long as you use the starting load and work the load up from there.

As for primers, you have to use the right class of primer (as indicated in the reloading data), like small or large rifle primers or small or large pistol primers or standard of magnum primers. But you can switch between brands. Be aware that in general Winchester primers are the most energetic and if you develop a load with other manufactures primers than you have to start all over at the starting load if you change to a different brand primer.

There are some precautions with the change in brass. Most commercial brass can be used interchangeable especially if it is Federal, Winchester, or Remington. Brass by others MAY be OK too but there is one class that has thicker walls and smaller case volume and that greatly effect the generated pressures. That would be Military brass. Go cautiously with it and most certainly use the starting loads and watch the brass for signs of excessive pressures.

LDBennett

 

[soundguy]

in addition to the good info by LDB, re: milsurp brass.

Check it for crimped primer pockets. Many milsurps I see have crimped pockets, and you have to ream the crimp out before re-loading the brass. ( lyman, and many others make the tools.. cheap hand tools.. all the way up to attachments for automatic case prep machines ).. some remove the crimp with a drill bit counter sink.. I don't , personally, the real tool is so cheap i don't take the chance on messing up a case .. etc.

 

[steve4102]

Load data is NOT a recipe and should not be treated as such. It is merely a guideline.

You will never match the components listed in your manuals, never. Use whatever case, primers, bullets you have. Bullets of same weight and similar construction of different manufacturer can also be substituted. Just start low and work up. Powder and powder charge should be verified from more than one data source.

 

[soundguy]

You will never match the components listed in your manuals, never. .

I believe you are incorrect.

I have plenty of manuals. the 4 i use the most are speer, sierra, hornady and lyman.

the lyman is just a general good reality check-up.

the hornady lists projectile #'s.. I buy projectiles that match the #'s in the book. Same with speer and sierra.. Heck.. I do the same with nosler projectiles and my nosler manual.

I use the powders they list. most of my loads list generic primers.. however on some I use the actual primer listed. same with brass.

point being.. you CAN match case, brass, primer, powder and projectile. I've done it on hornady MANY times.

 

[LDBennett]

A beginning reloader needs the minimum of variables to stay out of trouble. The trouble might be selecting a bullet that creates more pressure due to its material makeup or jacket type or who knows what. It has not been tested in a lab with all the right pressure measuring tools so it may not be safe. It is not wise for a beginning reloader to take to switching out components as it may not be safe.

A new reloader should treat the loads as recipes (within reason... commercial brass can be exchanged for other commercial new brass and most American primers can interchange within the same type but the reloader must start at the starting load for safety with every change to the components).

The critical things for beginning reloaders are to use the exact bullet (not just the same bullet weight) and follow the powder recommendation and loads. As the reloader becomes experienced and learned, they will figure out what variation can be made safely. That may be a couple of years down the road!

LDBennett

 

[al45lc]

I disagree, the key is the starting load and working up, with a specific powder.
Variables of bullet type (with the possible exception of cast in rifles) within weight are minimal as well as with primer brand, and commercial cases.
I'm talking of starting loads here, not mid or max range loads.
Powder is altogether different and shouldn't be substituted by beginners under any circumstances, but most other components will have minimal effect on pressure, as long as starting loads are observed.
I've often substituted primer brand, cases and bullet types (within weight) without any problems.
However, once the mid range load is approached, care must be given to pressure signs for problems.
The Lee manual is based on specific powders within bullet weights, non specific as to the type of bullet mostly, as well as primer and case brand.
The powder and starting loads are key, IMO.

 

[carver]

Load data is NOT a recipe and should not be treated as such. It is merely a guideline.

You will never match the components listed in your manuals, never. Use whatever case, primers, bullets you have. Bullets of same weight and similar construction of different manufacturer can also be substituted. Just start low and work up. Powder and powder charge should be verified from more than one data source.

I agree with most of your post, the exception being that you will never match all components, because you can, but you don't need to. All a new reloader has to do is follow the instructions in his reloading manuals. Manuals means more than one. The Hornady 7th edition manual list 13 different powders for the 240 gr. XTP bullet, for the .44 Mag, and Nosler lists 6, two of which are not in the Hornady manual. New reloaders need to decide what bullet they want to load, say a 240 gr. XTP, in .44 Mag., then simply check your manuals to see what powders will work. Buy the one you want, and go for it. Brass manufacturer doesn't matter at all as long as it is not cracked, or otherwise damaged, it just has to be .44 Magnum.

 

[soundguy]

I agree with most of your post, the exception being that you will never match all components, because you can, .

My point exactly. You can, if you wanted, match all components out of the manual.

 

[steve4102]

It is impossible to match components used in test data. To do so one would need the exact same powder, primers, brass and bullets. As there are lot-to-lot variation, one would need the exact same lot numbers as well. One would also need the same temp., humidity, atmosphere.
Not to mention the number one component, The Firearm itself. As we all know, each firearm has a mind of it's own. What works and is safe in mine, may or may not be safe in yours.

 

[X Ring]

And you could go a step further and say no two rounds of ammunition are EXACTLY the same. There will be small differences in bullets, cases, powder charge, and even primers. For that mater a firearm will be different one shot to the next because of heat build up. BUT all of that doesn’t really add up to a hill of beans as far as safety is concerned. No one ever kaboomed a gun solely because of these small differences. Now it may affect accuracy to some extent but not so much as to unacceptable unless you are trying to drive nails.

 

[soundguy]

It is impossible to match components used in test data. To do so one would need the exact same powder, primers, brass and bullets. As there are lot-to-lot variation, one would need the exact same lot numbers as well. One would also need the same temp., humidity, atmosphere.
Not to mention the number one component, The Firearm itself. As we all know, each firearm has a mind of it's own. What works and is safe in mine, may or may not be safe in yours.

My disagreement with your initial post remains unchanged.

in case you forgot what you typed. here it is:

You will never match the components listed in your manuals, never

You state matching components.

I can flip open my hornady manual.. and use the exact primers, brass, bullets and powder listed. IE.. components.

Prove otherwise.

 

[steve4102]

Prove otherwise.

The rifle is a "Component".

What was the case capacity of the brass used in the Hornady manual? Different lots(especially 5.56 )of same manufacturer have different case capacities. To match that component exactly you must have the same case capacity and lot numbers.

What were the lot numbers of the powders used. Most manufactures have a +/- window of 3%. To match that component exactly you must have the exact lot number.

Although not a physical component, temperature can and does affect pressure. At what temperature did Hornady test their loads. Testing your handloads at a different temp will change the make up of the load and it's components.

 

[soundguy]

The rifle is a "Component".

Non sequitur , your facts are uncordinated.

You specified components listed in the manual. no where does my manual list the rifle type involved. Lets stick to the facts please.

What was the case capacity of the brass used in the Hornady manual? Different lots(especially 5.56 )of same manufacturer have different case capacities. To match that component exactly you must have the same case capacity and lot numbers.

Assuming you match the case manufacturer, ( and I, was, in my example, matching case manufacturer to one listed ) you are dealing with the same case. differences in volume, on same case type will have -epsilon- difference for practical purposes. You are dealing in minutia, a weak straw argument at best.

What were the lot numbers of the powders used. Most manufactures have a +/- window of 3%. To match that component exactly you must have the exact lot number..

Again.. those variables are NOT listed in the manuals list of components. Your specific wording even mentions 'most' meaning not all. thus is a vauge statement. We are dealing in 'listed' specifics of components. This is another minutia / epsilon issue.

Although not a physical component, temperature can and does affect pressure. At what temperature did Hornady test their loads. Testing your handloads at a different temp will change the make up of the load and it's components.

Non sequitur , your facts are uncordinated.

You specified components listed in the manual. no where does my manual list temperature, thus, it's not a listed component, as specified in the original argument. Again.. Lets stick to the facts please.

 

[LDBennett]

The bottom line here is we are talking about a new reloader.

Who here wants to stand up and tell him (or her) in writing that deviations from the manuals is the way to start out reloading? What if he or she gets it wrong, hurt themselves or others and the gun? The next step might be their lawyer says well "Joe on the Internet" said it was OK. There is liability if even for feeling responsible if the newby makes a mistake in his deviations from the recipe.

I think it better to get the newby to follow the manual for component selection because there are some combinations that you might not think of that the newly "finds" or invents that are dangerous. Most brass meets industry standards if it comes from Winchester, Remington, or Federal so you probably can interchange those. The same goes for primers if you stay with the specified size and type. When you start changing bullets or powders or invent loads not published is when you can get into trouble. But just to be safe I think it wise to tell a newby to use all the components listed with no deviations.

Just my opinion! Take it or leave it.

LDBennett

 

[steve4102]

You specified components listed in the manual. no where does my manual list the rifle type involved. Lets stick to the facts please.

FACT. All of my manuals list the firearm or test barrel used. You called out "My Hornady Manual" in a previous post. Not sure which # Hornady you have, but my #7 lists Rem 700, 26 inch barrel 1/12 twist for the 223.

Again.. those variables are NOT listed in the manuals list of components. Your specific wording even mentions 'most' meaning not all. thus is a vauge statement. We are dealing in 'listed' specifics of components

Correct the manuals do not list the "Lot" numbers in their manual data pages.
FACT. they do however instruct the handloader, "anytime you change a component you should drop the charge down and work it back up" " this includes a change in lot numbers.
This is basic reloading 101. A change in lot numbers can cause a change in performance and pressures because components vary from lot-to-lot and are NOT identical. This is why published reloading data is NOT a recipe, to many variables.

 

[steve4102]

Not only do all of my manuals list the firearm or test barrel used, some even list the groove diameter.

For example: Lyman 4th Edition data for the 40 S&W with 175gr and 180gr lead bullets list a max charge of True Blue at 7.0gr and a start charge of 6.3gr. OAL's vary from 1.10 to 1.130.

Ramshot the makers of True Blue list 170gr lead--Start=5.9gr and a max of 6.6gr with 1.130 OAL. 180gr Lead listed as Start=5.1gr and a max of 5.7gr with an OAL of 1.120.

Why the huge difference, could be a lot of things, but one reason for sure is the firearm used and the groove diameter.
Ramshot used a groove diameter of .400 with a .401 lead bullet. Lyman on the other hand used a .401 groove diameter with a .401 lead bullet.

Treating Lyman cast data as a "Recipe" without knowing your firearms groove diameter could be disastrous.

If you don't think your firearm is an important component when it comes to handloading, Good Luck to ya.

 

[zant]

Just as an aside concerning exact componets,etc-Friend was new to reloading-made up some .45acp-asked me why none shot at published velocity-high and low..so instead of giving him bunch of technobabble,we did this-
10 Win cases-trimmed so all 10 were IDENTICAL
10-230XTP-weighed 30 and found 10 IDENTICAL
10-Win primers-seated and measured so all were IDENTICAL
10-231-weighed each charge on 2 beam,1elec scale-IDENTICAL
10-crimped and miked IDENTICAL
NONE shot at published velocity-high,low,20-50fps difference-Out of totally cleaned before testing 1911.......He looked at me and I said"Welcome to handloading,don't let it drive you nuts"

 

[steve4102]

The OP asked about the 223 and since your manuals do not list firearms for some strange reason I thought I would help you out.

Speer #13=Ruger 77 Mk II 22 inch barrel 1-12 twist.

Sierra #5=Colt AR-15A2 HBAR 20 inch barrel 1-7 twist.

Sierra #5=Rem 600 24 inch barrel 1-14 twist.

Lyman 4th Edition=Universal Receiver 24 inch 1-12 twist .224 groove diameter.

Hornady #7=Rem 700 26 inch barrel 1-12 twist.

Lyman 48=Universal Receiver 24 inch barrel 1-12 twist .224 Groove diameter.

Lyman 48= Colt AR-15 20 inch barrel 1-7 Twist.

Nosler #6= Lilja Universal Receiver 24 inch barrel 1-12 twist.

Nosler #6= 5.56 Nato Pac-nor barrel 20 inch barrel 1-7 twist.

Hornady #7 223 Service Rifle=Colt AR-15 Citadel Barrel 20 inch 1-9 twist.

Hope this helps.

 

[kevinh]

Hehehe...sorry to create the stir.

But through it all, I get the overt message; stick with top brand cases (Federal, Winchester and Remington) and primer size specific for the round I'm building (CCI, Winchester). These are really the only 2 variables I have. The bullet weight, the powder and charge should be EXACTLY as indicated in my manuals.

I hope I'm learning...

kevinh