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Discussion Starter #1
I see a fair amount of data for 9x23 Winchester, but always for projectiles weighing 125 gr. and less. Is the case capacity so reduced that only very fast-burning propellants can be used, and the velocities are no improvement over .38 Super?
This is a guess on my part, but I thought I'd ask someone with actual experience with the round.
 

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The last time I even saw one, was in the early 1980's before saami even heard of it. Wildcatters that got an interest in pin guns. The 9mm para didn't have the punch to knock bowling pins over, and they were looking for something better than the .38 Super. Using 1911's with custom barrels from Douglas if I remember right. Cutting .223Rem cases down as long as they could leave them, and still feed. I can remember a lot of broken guns.
The guy that got me into those shoots was Mike Hart. We did a lot of gun building and load testing. He had one that worked, and he was using a 125grn RNSP with Win231 ball powder. I have no idea what the charge was, he pursued that, and I stuck with my .45acp.
 

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It was a way to make MAJOR in 9mm.It worked but.......
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I understand the motivation behind the cartridge, but I more interested in the lack of data for heavier projectiles.
 

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Sorry, my manuals are of no help—other than Winchester only had data for 124gn bullets and 231/HP38 and WAP (see Silhouette nowadays).
I would think that AA7, AA9, Blue Dot, and N105 would be excellent powders.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I'm inclined to agree, if enough of those propellants can be put behind a heavy bullet without compressing them. The really thick web in the case cuts its powder capacity. If enough of those propellants can be put in the case, there may not be much room to seat a bullet weighing over 125 gr., without compressing the charge, which could have any manner of ill effects.
SOME propellants respond well to mild compression, but I don't know which ones and under what conditions. IMR-700X comes to mind, but I don't know if it's because it responds well when compressed, or if it's just because I've been discussing it, recently.
 

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I think one of the reasons you only find loads for the 124grn, is most guns chambered for it, can't handle heavier without damage. The .38Super max load is 36,000 psi, max for the 9x24W is 55,000psi. Above, where I said I saw a lot of broken guns? A 124hp would go through a pin, and you have to knock them over. So guys were trying 147grn, and things were coming apart.
It's a niche round, an attempt to get .357Mag performance from a semi auto.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I guess that's an unresolvable limitation. If 124s/125s from a 9x23 punch through a bowling pin, the usual strategy is to lower velocity but maintain momentum with a heavier projectile. I guess if a 9x23 W load with 147 gr. projectile is developed that doesn't crack frames and otherwise destroy guns, its ballistics are back down in the .38 Super velocity realm. I STILL think that's in the "pretty good" category, but I was kinda hoping for more, from a 55 k.p.s.i. round. Oh well...

Thanks for all the input, fellas. I may not say it quite enough, but I DO appreciate the responses.
 

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Kosh, hope I didn't rain on you. Have you got one? If so, in what platform, and for what purpose?
 

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The heavier proje tiles take up needed powder capacity needing to be seated deep enough to make length limits.
The same reason most 9mm major loads run 124gr hollow points.
 

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I did load the 9X23 Win. I don't know how much less powder capacity 9X23 has than 38 Super, but it is readily apparent. I once threw the same heavy powder charge in 9X23 and 38 Super cases. The difference was easy to see as the 9X23 case was filled to the brim, while the 38 super case still had enough space to seat the bullet.

Looking through some of my notes, looks like I just loaded 124/125 grain bullets in the 9X23. I do believe a hand loader could develop a decent 147 grain load, but perhaps one of the semi boat tailed 147 grain bullets might be required due to that thick 9X23 case head. Buffalo Bore lists a 9X23 with a 147 at 1300 FPS. Looks like BB is using a Hornady 147 XTP which does have a slight boat tail. I like AA-9 for heavy 38 Super/Super Comp loads, but even using 124/125 grain bullets couldn't get enough AA-9 in the 9X23 case to get anywhere near factory 9X23 ballistics. I dropped back to the faster AA-7in the 9X23 to achieve factory 9X23 ballistics.

FWIW, I found that with well supported ramped barrels, 9X23 Win. ballistics with 124/125 grain bullets were easily achieved using 38 Super, Super Comp and 38TJ cases. Using 147 grain bullets, 1250-1300 FPS was also easily achieved in the three types of cases I used with, no muss or fuss. Once I realized 9X23 ballistics were so easily achieved with the various .38S type cases, I kind of lost interest in loading 9X23...ymmv
 

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Discussion Starter #13
TRAP 55: No worries, sir, this is ONE "mistake" that I haven't had the opportunity to make, oddly enough. I was just wondering about the reason we never see data for it which uses bullets heavier than 125 gr. The "hardly exhaustive" experience that I've had with handgunning for game has suggested to me that "heavier and monolithic" tends to work better than "lighter and will expand on ANYTHING".

If a fully-chamber-supported .38 Super will launch 147s at or near the same speeds obtainable from a 9x23 W, as ROCK 185 relates, then it's FAR more likely that a .38 Super is in my future, than a 9x23W. I guess it's similar to racing engine development (at least what I understand of it): "If you can get the horsepower you need with normal aspiration, why mess with the complications of twin-turbo charging, just to invite a whole new set of different and less resolvable problems?"

I should ALSO point out that the pistol of interest would be for competition and SMALLer game/varmint harvesting (javelina, coyote, jackrabbits, POACHERS!), and NOT anything as big as whitetail or really BIG feral pigs. Bob Milek always had good luck with under-gunning big game, but I'M not willing to try it.
 
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