battle of lz betty may 3 1969

Discussion in 'Vietnam Memories Forums - A Place For All Vets Fro' started by joseph long, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. joseph long

    joseph long New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Messages:
    11
    The battle actually took place May 3, 1970 not 1969

    I awoke to aprox. 250 incoming motor rounds...Not the typical 3-5 rounds we had received in the past. I peaked out of the bunker to see bunkers 1&2 were firing back on to the LZ , the fires lite up night sky from the fuel dump and choppers being blown up from the Sappers who penetrated the wire undetected.

    The guys manning the bunkers, surely didn't expect to be hit from behind. I made my way to the was aid station around 2:15 am. Being a body guard for a chaplin who was not on the LZ . My job was to protect the aid station in the absence of the chaplin....I arrived to see one doctor ..(Dr. Speedy was his name) and two medics dealing with a room full of wounded guys ( 35 aprox) 13 or so KIA off to the side ....One kid who looked just like me was dead, uncovered ....I offered a prayer on the floor next to him for his parents who did not know he was dead....his face was peaceful ...he only had one small hole next to his noise ....Being an only son I felt so bad that his family who did not know he was dead.. not so much for him cause he wasn't suffering any more ...I was there to see their dead son and they would not know he was dead for a couple of weeks.

    Soon after I got sick...too much blood and screaming and only one doctor and two 19 year medics to care for so many...soft ball hunks of flesh ......one guy split from his ankle to his balls ...split 6-10 inches apart....I heard he lived.....AMAZING....

    The real nightmare was there was no ammunition ....the fighting went on for two hours or so....I was filling clips of 223 while helping with the wounded.....One kid showed up at the aid station....He told me a story of bring ammo to one bunkers ( I think bunker 2) when the NVA who captured the bunker shot a b 52 rocket at his jeep...blew him 50 feet....and he crawled to the aid station some 500 ft.......He said to me ...my back is hurting, please look...I lifted up his shirt only to find 10-15 holes in his back ....I told him.....Hey you just earned a purple heart....not that it mattered at the time....he was alive...

    Around 3:45 am an officer ordered me to get in the jeep with the ammo and go to the green line....(.This is impressive).....I arrived to see 200 or so GI's shooting into the darkness....no bad guys charging ( thank God) all of a sudden a loch dropped a flair in front of bunker 2 ..1 min or so latter two cobra gun ships ( 1st cav guys) dropped all pods 72 or so rockets ..Glen & I ducked ..I explaied...WOW... I'm so glad I am on this side of the wire....


    The battle was over around 4:30....or so....They told us we killed 30-40 NVA....I remember thinking ....That's it.!!!.....3hrs of shooting....Navel gun fire.included...surely we got more than 30-40 NVA even worse ...There were 60 to 70 funerals in the town of Phan Thiet in the next few days.. Years latter declassified docs exposed we killed 850 NVA ....not 30-40....and there was another 3,000 NVA ( a whole division) poised to take the LZ.....I remembered saying to Glen my buddy....in response to his concern we are in trouble....in the beginning of the battle...I said .... The dead and the wounded are in trouble ....not us...Not yet!!!..I had no idea how serious and how close we were to being over run....

    All in all a very scary night...nothing compared to many....The truth is a war is not about a war but... a bunch of fire fights...battles...with your buddies ....Nothing political... I am lucky to be able to post this story....When I got home form Vietnam...I tried to tell my parents what I saw...and endured .They did not want to listen....for 20 years I could not tell any one...Thank you for this fourm..Sp-5 Joseph Long class of Vietnam 1969-1970
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2016
    ms6852, Designer, jedwil and 6 others like this.
  2. gdmoody

    gdmoody Moderator Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2007
    Messages:
    24,565
    Location:
    Athens, Georgia
    Welcome to the forum Joseph. A great story even though it is a sad story. I was getting ready to graduate from High School in May 1969. I did graduate in July and immediately joined the Army. Even though I volunteered for Viet Nam three times, I was never sent. I don't know whether to be glad or mad that I didn't go. I retired from the Army in 1996 and during that 27 year career, I volunteered for every little war we got involved in but still was never sent to any of them. I thank you for your service!
     
    ms6852, howlnmad and joe45c like this.

  3. howlnmad

    howlnmad Well-Known Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2008
    Messages:
    14,402
    Location:
    Harriman, Tn
    Hello and welcome from Tennessee. Thank you for sharing.
     
    ms6852 and dbcooper like this.
  4. cpt-t

    cpt-t Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2012
    Messages:
    71
    Location:
    Wichita Ks
    Joseph: Thank You for sharing such a traumatic experience in Your Life. I truly hope that this has made you feel better and relived some of the pressure you carry inside You. By telling us about something that is a picture burned into Your brain and that will probably, always be there. It is a real same that You could not tell Your Family about an event that changed Your life, and that You dream about at night. But what You experienced with your Parents not wanting to listen to your story, is really very common. It is not that they didn`t care, they could not make it better for you, so they just didn't want to know, even tho they still loved You so very much . Parents and Family are like that, mine were and a lot of my friends from Viet Nam were also. I personally have found it is just better to tell your stories to your own kind. Those that have seen the Elephant up close and personal like You first hand. There are a number of Combat Vet`s here on this Forum, that will listen and understand just where You are coming from. I know I will and You can count on that, You have My word. Telling my stories to the right people, has always helped me. I hope it will do the same for You.
    ken
     
    ms6852 and rooter like this.
  5. rooter

    rooter *VMBB Senior Chief Of Staff* Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2001
    Messages:
    17,107
    Location:
    Glendale Arizona
    Thanks Joe for telling us about those experiences and reflections....Though I participate on this site more than
    any other site, we have a Vietnam Seabee site called SMUG MUG...I am continually requesting to the troops to try
    and share their stories...I assure them that it helped me so very much...The are other Navy Seabee sites ID'd
    as NSVA (Navy Seabee Veterans America)...There are various units located around the country and I become
    'black-listed' on one of them for telling some stories the directors (honchos) claimed were too lurid and terrible.
    I rec'd communication once from female journalist, Martha Raditz (sp) warning me of one of my stories was
    too brash...murder being punished has no time limit for it to expire...she used a word...sounded legal...I've had
    that stories and others listed on here for more than a dozen years...I had titled that story:
    NOTHING PERSONAL...IT'S JUST WAR... It is down below on Vietnam stories by John Wilborn...Chief
    THANK FOR YOU SERVICE, JOE...YOU MADE A DIFFERENCE....YOU WERE BEING WATCHED OVER
    FOR A REASON..SOMEDAY WHEN YOU, AND ALL OF US TROOPS, REPORT TO THE SUPREME COMMANDER, WE'LL KNOW WHY HIS GUIDEANCE AND WILL SUSTAINED US! AMEN
    ..
     
    ms6852 and cpt-t like this.
  6. Tom T

    Tom T Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2013
    Messages:
    368
    Location:
    Three Forks MT.
    Some times it does help to talk what part of the Country was it you were in? I was there in 69/70 Welcome back.




     
  7. gvw3

    gvw3 Well-Known Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2011
    Messages:
    12,783
    Location:
    Chicago IL Area
    Thanks for your service.
     
  8. jim brady

    jim brady Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2009
    Messages:
    4,094
    Location:
    Simla, Colorado
    Hello Joseph. Welcome to the Forum. Glad you finally found a place to share your story. It is not good to keep things like this bottled up inside - talking about it helps to ease it. Keeping it in your head just makes it fester. Took me 20 years to talk about the 'bad stuff'. Now there are things that I don't have to think about every day. Welcome Home, Brother.

    My little slice of Paradise was 1970-71 - C Company, 159th Assault Support Helicopter Battalion, 101st Airborne based out of Camp Hutchmooth near Phu Bia (south of Hue). Where was LZ Betty?
     
    ms6852 and cpt-t like this.
  9. joseph long

    joseph long New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Messages:
    11
    Thank you for your email....I have felt so alone with all my stories, I am sorry it has taken me so long to answer you....after you were so kind to email me....Any way...My friends father was a Marine in 1944 ..after enduring boot and getting ready to go to fight the Japs the war ended.....His biggest bitch at 87 years old when I met him was....I will never know if I could handle a fire fight....2nd story ....I was in Bali Indonisia in 2003 ...I met a man at the hotel pool....around my age...(I'm 66 now) He asked me how I felt about draft dodgers ...He left for Canada in 1969....My Mother told me to go...I said Mom....If your generation didn't go fight we would be speaking German or Japanese...I believe we owe a dept to the dead.....I know this is true... I told the guy at the pool I have nothing against him for being a draft dodger...(.He kept it to himself..)..BUT he will never know how he would handle himself in harms way....HOWEVER; One night in Vietnam I was shot at ...a sniper in the wire...The round went by my head...inches...hit the sand in front of me..When a round is that close it is as loud as it comes out of the barrel of the gun....Anyway....the first round startled me, I jerked to the left....2nd round followed ....hit the sand in front of me....six more rounds followed as I ran like John Wane in an "S" pattern.. (Not giving anyone a clean shot) If the sniper survived the war I dought if he ever told the story of shooting 7-10 times and missing.....

    The point is ...After calling the officer of the guard, explaining there was a sniper shooting ...He said calm down son .....BULL....I said....HEAR IS THE DEAL...I sat on the floor of the Chapel next to a bunch of guys from the 101st airborn division who just got back from Cambodia....I asked the infintry grunt "Do I have this wrong?" Should I be out hunting this sniper????? He said....Tomorrow...There will be a dead kids mother crying...Because the son did not use common sense....."NEVER PUT YOURSELF IN HARMS WAY UNLESS YOU HAVE TO."

    Some people luck out...My Great Grandfather was in the Battle of Getesburg shot two times...My Grandfather was in WW1 My Father (Born in 1902) Too young for WW1 ...Too old for WW 11 Made me just perfect for Vietnam....graduating high school in1967. The truth is (YOU)... Anyone who could survive 26 years in the army ...Putting up with ..Well.....BULL... FTA...STUFF .Has my vote to to be alive....It is just the luck of draw....

    All the best ... You didn't miss a thing.....God kept you alive for other things in my oppion.Thanks for sharing! JL
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 2, 2016
  10. joseph long

    joseph long New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Messages:
    11
    Thank you Ken....

    Thank you so much!!

    YES I FEEL BETTER!!!

    .But... I have never considered myself a Combat Vet... Nor should I... Even thought I had a Very bad night..And had to shoot ( That was one night.. Not for a whole year or years like in other wars). Let alone.. what young men have survived before us.

    I was in the Airport in Atlanta...Smoking room...Vets from the war coming home from afganistan etc thet needed a light ...Which I had....I said welcome home..!!!..By the way I was in Vietnam....They all said ..Oh Wow...You guys had it really bad.....I said NO....The guys before me had it really bad.....Korea...WWII, WWI . What I realized was no one in a battle was there for a war ....You are there for your buddy....No politics ....I am sure young men ..for thousands of years know this...BUT..I was so happy to explain to the young men ...No I did not have it bad...everyone else did before me.....

    . In fact...I have enjoyed being in a VFW..OR a AMVETS....Sitting at the bar in my 30"s where too many guys said they were a door gunner on heuway .(.Of course they were lieing)..I loved explaining I was a Chaplins Asst./Body guard....Oh by the way I had a 7" piece of Huey tail rotter drive chain on my wrist...From the 1st Cav. from Phan Thiet....3/4 of the KIA'S in country did not have an 11 B MOS.I believe.an incoming round in any war is just being in the wrong place at the wrong time....One night we took 4-5 incoming 40 mm rounds ...I was near the aid station....There was a kid who told me the week before there was no God....I told him I can't prove it BUT...When I pray sometimes I feel goosebumps....Short story ...Perhaps an old story....there are no atihesits in a bunker....Any way... the kid next to me in the bunker...who knew last week... " There was no God."...All of a sudden said after the 3-4th incoming rounds ....OH GOD!!!!! PLEASE HELP ME.... He was beside me in the bunker ...I hit him with my shoulder and said SSsssOOOooo....You did not ask for your mother or a Hersery bar Funny you ask for Gods help when you don't believe in him ....The truth is ...I am certain this story has played out for thousands of years when men are in harms way...

    .. I personally consider myself lucky to have survived 6 mortter attacts. 3 sniper misses, and one major battle and drove.....
    .
    Hwy.1. 7,000 miles for six months from Quin Yong, passed Phu Cat..to.LZ English.and on to, Bong Song ( And I was just a Chaplins Asst.) The truth is Vietnam was a very dangerous place...and it didn't matter what your MOS was.... any one could get dead ..Nothing compared to many....I am only a combat Vet to some one never in country....But I do know...I did not lunch..When the shit it the fan...

    .As a young kid ...I never understood how a person could charge off the beach in Normandy

    .After I got sick..from all the wounded and dead... I was calm and helped everyone around me to chill out....and find ammo and get ready...For what I did not know at the time....Around 3:50 am a jeep pulled up to the aid station...a captain ordered me to grab the ammo and get in the jeep ...You are needed on the green line.he yelled..I said Sir... as I gave him a stract saloute Spt. Long ....Defence of the aid station...Sir....He said ....Nice try son... as he pulled out a 45...Locked and loaded it and said get in the Fxxxxing jeep or I will shoot you...

    Well....Then I said to my friend Genn ( the other Chaplins Body guard) NOW we are in trouble.....NOT before.

    Phan Thiet in 1970 Was quite the LZ ..It had a Company of Army Rangers, 1st 50th Mec infinty Battiloin 50 half tracts, flame tracks, and dusters... OH..and .. 1st Cav D troupe .Cobras.etc.I was friends with a medic from the Rangers....They would to out once a month... 8-10 man teams for 3 weeks dropped in the middle of 3,000 NVA..They .Called in air strikes...Shit ...How do you get the balls...or the crazyness to stay for three tours ...let alone.. one 3 week drop..

    My medic friends name was Jack Arnold...He told me that most of the guys in the ranger platoon were so crazy they never wanted to come home ....They lived to take ears.... and loved the hunt.....WOW!!!! I believe every war has a few who actually love it....I am greatfull To all of them...".The fearless"....from all the wars ...who made us safe.....And Thank you... Ken.. for replying to my post...I feel less alone..JL
     
    cpt-t likes this.
  11. joseph long

    joseph long New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Messages:
    11
    LZ Betty was in Phan Thiet....aprox. 200 miles north of Sigon on the So. China sea....150 miles so of Phan Rang...Thank you for responding to my posting and considering me a brother....Truly it helps to talk to about this stuff....I did not for 20 years or so....

    Being a Chaplin's body guard I got to travel in country a lot of places...Being attached to 41 atry. in the central highlands 105s,155s ...spending nights on top of a mountian top ( LZ English.)....listening to fire missions all night long.... Wow....The gun bunnies (So they were called) Had arms the size of Mr. America like trees .....They would pick up two 105 rounds 98 lbs. each, one in each hand .....and load guns for hours in the middle of the night.caring of who and why they had to shoot....I knew as well as they did ..."Thank God" They were not in harms way like the kids....asking for the fire mission....

    Phu Cat was. Protected by the Tiger division ROC's and Phu Cat's F-4 jets... A amazing airforce base. Huge swimming pool ...Camp Fidel, Head Quarters Battery locatied aprox. 2.5 miles from the air force base. was of no value as a target to the bad guys.....HOWEVER; Holy s***...1 mile away we could see summary exicutions in the morning... dished out to troops caught sleeping on guard duty.. One mile away If we got caught sleeping on guard duty ...we would get an article 15 and a loss of rank...If a ROC company took fire from a village along Hway 1 north of Phu Cat ....The Roc's would kill every man woman and child and Water Buffalo Everyone was scared of this crew......

    My friend was in the air force....His job was organizing close air support for the ROC'S .....He told me a story of being in a room when a South Koren General questioned the body count for an opperation ......The ROC'S did not collect ears...16 heads were emptied on the floor.....WHO'S ZOOMING WHO!!!!! That was the problem with Vietnam .....Half a war....Too many rules of engagement.....Set by Washington....NO COMMON SENCE!!!!

    One night Phu Cat air force base got hit with some 122mm rockets.....around 2:00am....The First Sgt....(Korean War Vet)... Came runnning through the hooch....He said to me ..."Long, forget about your boots ...grab your M-16 and get ready to fight....I was soooo tired after pulling guard duty every other night ...I said to myself...If indeed I have to fight I am surely gonna have my boots on.... That was part of the craziness Why should we be so sleep deprived ....Just draft some more guys....

    What was your job in country???? Were you too sleep derprived??

    JL
     
    cpt-t likes this.
  12. jim brady

    jim brady Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2009
    Messages:
    4,094
    Location:
    Simla, Colorado
    Hi Joe. Those ROKs were pretty tough, alright. We have a few of them and some Aussies in our area (I Corps - from Da Nang north to the DMZ and west as far as the Ashaw Valley and Khe Sanh). We were C Company of our Battalion, and pretty lucky in that A and B Companies were on Main Post Phu Bia with all of the Brass, and they left us alone to ourselves at Camp Hutchmuth (about 5 miles west of Main Post). Those poor souls on Main Post had to blacken their boots and had to pretend they were Stateside. We lived in hootches, were always soaked during the Monsoon and had plenty of mud, but we were far better off. One thing we did pay for was because we were off to ourselves, when the crappy/hot missions came up they usually were handed to us. The Brass never saw us, so it was easier to give us the rotten missions.

    Sleep deprived? Yup. I was on flight status as a Gunner, Crew Chief or Flight Engineer (depending what they needed me for) for most of my tour. The Pilots (Officers/Warrant Officers) had flying rules for how many hours they could be on duty and/or fly. Nothing like that existed for the Enlisted crews. Some times I was on duty for 4 straight days 3 nights. Mostly when my company duty rotation came up for Sergeant of the Perimeter Guard, Charge of Quarters, flying regular missions during day time and flare ship at night. Seemed like most of the time when it was my turn at flare ship somebody got hit and we dropped flares all night for them. A few times we could actually try to sleep in the helicopter, but that was pretty rare. When I got off duty sometimes I slept 2 straight days if nobody woke me. One of those I slept thru a rocket attack and didn't even know it until afterwards.

    I didn't have it bad at all. I was lucky to serve with some really fine people. Funny, the worst part of that time for me was when I came home. Everyone home had changed and I was a complete outsider. The older people looked down on me and other guys who came back because to them, somehow OUR War wasn't a REAL War compared to theirs. The friends who stayed home acted as if they'd catch something from us, or that were had done something unspeakable. There just wasn't anyone to talk to who could understand what you were saying.

    Funniest thing I ever saw? When I got back to Fort Lewis WA waiting for my leave orders, waiting in a Day Room with about 15 other guys for the Clerks to cut the orders. I'd been a Crew Chief/Gunner just days before, and others in the room were Artillery, Infantry, Special Forces and so on. Real killers:rolleyes:. Then it struck me that we were all watching Bugs Bunny/Road Runner cartoons and laughing like children.
     
    cpt-t likes this.
  13. cpt-t

    cpt-t Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2012
    Messages:
    71
    Location:
    Wichita Ks
    JOSEPH: I am very glad to hear You are feeling better. If I helped You in any way, it was definitely my pleasure. Reading your post`s sure has brought back a lot of memory. The ROK`s as You mentioned were always known to be some really bad guys. By those Units that worked close to them. All the ROK`s I ever worked with hated the South Vietnamese just as bad as they did the VC & NVA. And had no problem`s at all, in killing the South Vietnamese any time they could find them and got the chance to do so. We didn`t like to work with the ROK`s because of that and didn't very often. But they were just as unbelievably brutal to there own troops. And they didn't even try to hid any of the off the wall stuff they did. And to be really honest, after seeing the Elephant a few time I really didn't care very much any more.

    I always found it both sorta of funny but always very sad to me, that when you sit and listen to the stories told at the VFW type Bars. That very very few of the story tellers were just regular Soldiers, just regular old (((11-B`s ))). They were always SF, MAC-SOG, SPY`S, or one of the BOY`s from Langley. With a grubby long beard and filthy hair in pig tails down to there ass, wearing a pair of potbellied nasty dirty camo jungle fatigues and a boonie hat. With patches and pins all over them, most of which they didn't even have a clue, what they were for. And their personal knowledge of the Terminology, Geography, and the Weapons and Tactics that were actually used in Viet Nam was completely wrong. And one of those worthless POS would tell one of his often told lies and the others sitting with him would swear to it. Just waiting for their turn to tell one of their own pathetic Lies. Combat was a Nasty, Evil, and Vile business . But at least Combat was Honest, Brutally Honest, and it took my breath away most of the time. But to me Combat was Pure in just what it was no false pretences. So I really hate to hear low lifes that were not even there tell lies about it.

    You asked about being Sleep Deprived. I think were all were, in the field most of the time. I got to where I could go to sleep if we were somewhere, where I could by just closing my eyes. Maybe for just 10 or 15 min`s at a time and that helped a lot. But it didn't matter how tired we were. When we were called upon to fight, and we were already giving our max, you just reached down in to Your pocket and pulled out another 25%, it got to the point where we could just do that when it was needed. And like the Old Saying said ((( It Don`t Mean Nothing ))). I was very proud to be with and one of this type of Soldiers.

    The Old Saying`s like: To really live You must almost die, for life has a sweetness that the protected will never know. And There is nothing as Exciting and Exhilarating, as being Intentionally and Effectually fired upon, by someone who is trying their very best to kill you, but missed.

    JOSEPH: So tell Your stories, if it helps you. There are Combat Vets here that will read them and know what you are saying and where you are coming from. I give You my word on that.
    TAKE CARE MY FRIEND:
    ken
     
    jim brady likes this.
  14. joseph long

    joseph long New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Messages:
    11
     
  15. joseph long

    joseph long New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Messages:
    11
    Thank you so much for giving a crap about telling and knowing the truth about the ROC,S Not many Vietnam Vets know ROC'S ... I wish that the Vietnam war was run by the ROC'S instead of Lindon Johnson... One crazy US president.... When I was in Phu Cat....Next to the ROC company... I wanted to learn Ti-Qan -Do
    ..( don't know how to spell it,sorry) But ...I went to the ROC compound and asked to be trained.....


    HOLY CRAP...After just two training sessions .. With this ROC...MASTER... I figured out ...The ROC's are like the Jap's in WW11 ...I was given the respect to be taught...HOWEVER: I realized this was a way of life ....Not a learned way of fighting......I went to my Korean Master and appoligised and said... This is not me..THANK YOU.!!! ( As my eyes looked at the floor out of respect for him.

    All the ROC"s I met.did not respect American"s ...The truth is... I was a body guard for a chaplin....Not an Army Ranger ...a Navy Seal ...or a force
    Recon Marine....I was 20 years old in a place where no one seamed to know what They were doing..At least The ROC's took the whole thing seriously ............BIG TIME...

    I have never met anyone who knew a Tiger Division ROC..Marine..... Let alone a US air force kid ruinning close air support in the central highlands..Other than me...

    I am ...
    SSssooo greatfull to be able to type this stuff to someone ...And they Know about the ROC's....I am so mad that Captian James Callie was put under the bus ...for Meli (sp) ... When the ROCK's .Killed everything...Man..Woman and child...water buffalow. EVERTHING......WHO IS ZOMMING WHO!!!

    ...Obama is just like Johnson....(In my opinion) running the war polliticaly not listening to the ground commanders. I hate the lies...The rules of engagement....Then and now.....When kids get killed and no one seams to have any common sense......

    Every knows......The NVA knew the American's did not run.. EVER.....Every one I knew ( The army ranger guys) & two mariens ... I know personally.. who earned the Navy Cross..... Did not treat NVA as second string
    The NVA did .not under estimate the average 11-b on the ground...God knows...DO NOT MESS WITH THE ROC'S........And the desire of a 19-20 year US troupe to come home...

    I met a kid 20 years ago..he told me about being 13 years old on the DMZ in Korea ...He told me he shot and killed a N Koren on the DMZ ....Every So. Korean learns how to shoot ..& Forced to be on the DMZ ..In America...(no draft) The so called Youth... are not taught even how to shoot...WOW...Who is going to fight ..??? I am 66 I have 5,000 rounds of 223.

    I Believe every young person at 18 should learn how to shoot...Maybe before at 13-14...like I learned in boy scouts.......Sorry I am rambaling Thank you so much for taking the time to e-mail me...


    JL
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2016
    cpt-t likes this.