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Bob In St Louis
Senior Chief Moderator Staff
Posts: 1323
(11/10/01 9:16:20 am)
Reply | Edit | Del All Beware Vic's Guns, Elsberry, Missouri
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Mr. James Carmi, operator of Vic's Guns is in trouble. You see ads for Vic's Guns in Shotgun News (probably other papers too) selling full auto weapons. It seems that Mr. Carmi went into partnership with Mr. Jeffry Knipp, Police Chief of Farber, Missouri, to produce letters and send them to manufacturer's and distributors to get "Police Department Demo" autos. Mr. Carmi then sold the guns to individuals and other dealers, and gave a kickback to Knipp. BATF seized 800 fully auto weapons from Carmi's home.

Now, I don't like to see people get their rights infringed, but frankly, when you go around the system like this, you leave yourself wide open to be busted.
Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

LIKTOSHOOT
Senior Chief Moderator Staff
Posts: 2767
(11/10/01 9:33:42 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Beware Vic's Guns, Elsberry, Missouri
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Just shows to go you, some people can`t follow the law and it makes the rest of us look bad. What was this guy thinking, guess there will be some door knocking going on too, as they hunt down all the sold ones......some folks are going to be out some dollars.......
America, we are the symbol of Freedom and Liberty......

Tac401
Administrator
Posts: 2678
(11/10/01 11:23:28 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del

Re: Beware Vic's Guns, Elsberry, Missouri
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Wow,

You bet some folks will be out of some big bucks
considering the average full auto prices are around
$3000 each and up, and most average around $7000.
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rayra
V.I.P. Member
Posts: 232
(2/24/02 2:41:14 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Beware Vic's Guns, Elsberry, Missouri
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800 x $7000 = $5.6M
guess THAT is what they were thinking.

Zigzag2
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 2406
(2/24/02 8:37:44 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Beware Vic's Guns, Elsberry, Missouri
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Due to my lack of knowledge on this topic, what went wrong?
It seems to me if Carmi & Knipp were into selling class-3 weapons (stated they were in business together) their means of obtaining them may be guestionable... but not much different than the Phamacist purchasing a narcotic from a distributor (given all NFA paperwork was done properly).
I've read articles where the purchase of paticular weapons needed a LEA letter-head attached.
So... if the weapons were purchased legally...
and disposed of properly...
What's the problem?

Is this a text-book example of FRAUD?
or a couple of Guy's being caught-up in some legal wranglings?

800 weapons? saz a lot about something

AntiqueDr
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 2135
(2/24/02 9:27:15 am)
Reply | Edit | Del

Re: Beware Vic's Guns, Elsberry, Missouri
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He wasn't disposing of them properly. If I understand the situation, these two goombahs were ginning up letters on the chief's letterhead requesting demonstrations on various post-86 dealer-sample machineguns. This allows the initial dealer to obtain the gun, ostensibly to demonstrate to the interested agency and broker a sale. These post-86 DS guns can not be sold to individuals or to other dealers unless the other dealer can provide a law enforcement letter, and can not be retained by the original dealer if he surrenders his license. Very restricted stuff.

The payoff? You can get these DS's very reasonably since there is no private market. The markup would have been huge on each unit.

My question is: what were the buyers thinking? If somebody offers me a post-86 M16 or Steyr Aug as transferable then there needs to be a double-take... I would guess this was one of the ways they got caught...
We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
www.apaxenterprises.com

Zigzag2
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 2408
(2/24/02 11:05:51 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Beware Vic's Guns, Elsberry, Missouri
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AD, so a post 86 NFA weapon is not transferable?

AntiqueDr
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 2140
(2/24/02 11:21:00 am)
Reply | Edit | Del

Re: Beware Vic's Guns, Elsberry, Missouri
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In order to be transferable to individuals, a machinegun has to have been manufactured in the United States and registered prior to May 19, 1986. Machineguns imported prior to 1968 and registered may also be transferred to individuals.

Machineguns imported between 1968 and 1986 cannot be transferred to individuals (pre-86 Dealer Samples). Machineguns manufactured in the US after 5/19/86 can not be transferred to individuals (post-86 Dealer Samples).

NOTE: this only applies to machineguns. Short-barrelled rifles/shotguns and AOW's can still be manufactured and transferred with the appropriate tax.

We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
www.apaxenterprises.com

Edited by: AntiqueDr at: 2/24/02 11:27:46 am

Zigzag2
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 2410
(2/24/02 11:25:52 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Beware Vic's Guns, Elsberry, Missouri
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I've learned something new

Thanks AD...

Tac401
Administrator
Posts: 3667
(2/24/02 7:33:18 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del

Re: Beware Vic's Guns, Elsberry, Missouri
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Doc is correct and also a C-3 dealer may keep
for his personal collection a Pre-86 Dealer Sample
when he/she surrenders their C-3.
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