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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I’ve been reloading for about a year and have done only smokeless powder loading for CAS. I want to try loading black powder cartridges and will likely use a BP substitute like Pyrodex. With that, can I use coated cast lead bullets without any extra lube or is lube always necessary for every BP application? Thanks in advance!
 

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I'm no expert . When you say coated do you mean already has lube in the grooves ? I do make my own black powder lube and use Lee Alox stuff for my smokeless cast bullets . Best I can say is you need to figure out if the lube on your bullets are for BP or smokeless . There is a difference and if use smokeless lube for BP it can gum up real bad . I don't know about Pyrodex substitute what it is considered . Sorry if not much help or I totally miss read your question . One question why decide BP substitute ? Many say it can cause rust easier then real BP . Each their own , it's ok just saying if you can't find the substitute BP is good .
 

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Lube on a bp round reduces the powder fouling and helps keep it soft. Powder coating won't do this. You need a natural lube like SPG. Petroleum based lubes will make powder fouling worse. SPG will work for both BP loads and smokeless loads. Whether you use real BP or a substitute BP it will need lube and it will need to be cleaned as soon as you can after firing.
 

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Lube on a bp round reduces the powder fouling and helps keep it soft. Powder coating won't do this. You need a natural lube like SPG. Petroleum based lubes will make powder fouling worse. SPG will work for both BP loads and smokeless loads. Whether you use real BP or a substitute BP it will need lube and it will need to be cleaned as soon as you can after firing.
My sentiments perzackly. If at all possible I'd not use Pyrojunk.
 

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My sentiments perzackly. If at all possible I'd not use Pyrojunk.
Haven't seen real black powder for as long as Unique powder has been missing. Bullet lube is essential for BP loads - and the best I've found so far is SPG. The old Arsenal specs for .45-70 called for 'Japan Wax'. I don't have a clue what it is - other than some sort of bullet lube.
 

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pyrojunk! badstuff! after use you must clean, clean, clean! then oil the bore real well. check after a week and you may find rust. ask how i know. i am very picky about cleaning and the only post cleaning problems i have ever had was after using pyrodex.
i do enjoy black powder cartridge shooting and have little trouble cleaning after using it. so much so i do not do smokeless in a 45-70. if you get into black powder shooting you will become addicted! and that is a good thing.

rick
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
By coated I mean a polymer based coating over cast lead…as in the whole bullet is coated. Sounds like lube is necessary whether coated or not. Really like to try BP cartridges though….Anyone have any shooting supply company names that make bullets specifically for BP loading?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I'm no expert . When you say coated do you mean already has lube in the grooves ? I do make my own black powder lube and use Lee Alox stuff for my smokeless cast bullets . Best I can say is you need to figure out if the lube on your bullets are for BP or smokeless . There is a difference and if use smokeless lube for BP it can gum up real bad . I don't know about Pyrodex substitute what it is considered . Sorry if not much help or I totally miss read your question . One question why decide BP substitute ? Many say it can cause rust easier then real BP . Each their own , it's ok just saying if you can't find the substitute BP is good .
I wanted to use a substitute like Pyrodex because I’ve heard that it’s less corrosive than BP. Maybe I should just make things less complicated and use regular BP and not worry about it…haha, like I said, I’m new to this and starting with a little recon first…I’m grateful for all and any info.
 

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Two things should clear up the issue and basically it is as Griz posted, to wit; Smokeless powder lube is to prevent leading, as is plating and jackets due to the higher pressure and increased velocity of smokeless. BP lube is softer and, first, softens fouling, you aren't going to prevent it but you must keep it soft and secondly, also helps prevent leading. Leading with BP cartridges is not very common IF you fit the bullet properly.

A coated, plated, jacketed bullet has no lubricating or fouling softening properties whatsoever.

If I couldn't find real black powder I'd find Triple 7. I would not use Pyrojunk in any firearm I cared about. There's a Blackhorn, Blackthorn...Black something or other out there but I don't know anything about it.

I think Buffalo Arms sells correct alloy bullets pre-lubed with SPG. Do you know your barrels dimensions? You'll need to know that before you order bullets.

First thing I would recommend is you get the "SPG Black Powder Cartridge Reloading Primer" and spend some tie with it. Paul Matthews also has some good books. Loading smokeless and BP are not the same.

SPG Lubricants: BP Cartridge Reloading Primer: Mike Venturino and Steven P Garbe: 9781879356986: Books - Amazon
 

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My first choice would be genuine black powder, I haven't used any thing else in a cartridge but I have used pyrodex and 777 in front stuffers, I liked 777 better than pyrodex but I have no problem finding real black as the outfit I work for stocks it. 777 burns cleaner than Pyro or black but you still need to use a bp lube with it and clean after use or it will corrode the bore just like any other bp or bp sub. The best bp solvent in the world is hot water and dish soap. Dry everything completely and oil it up. Petroleum based oils are fine for long term storage, just wipe the bore with a clean dry patch before shooting bp rounds as petroleum oils don't play nice with bp.
 

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There's a Blackhorn, Blackthorn...Black something or other out there but I don't know anything about it.
It's Blackhorn 209, it's formulated for modern inline rifles using 209 primers. I haven't ever used it, so I can't say how it performs.
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I have to disagree with mudman. I've used a lot of Pyrodex and never had any of those issues. To me it's the same as using real black.
I’ve used Pyrodex also and never had an issue with it…of course, I’ve only used it in percussion/cap and ball pistol and rifle, never to load cartridge.
 

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I have always been told to also fire a few caps before loading any powder for a gun . For me it depends what it is and how long it's been since I shot it last . Some of my cap and ball revolvers I shoot pretty often so just pop a few caps thru them . If it's one I don't get out quite as much and I have oiled it good knowing it will be awhile before shooting again I will run a patch down the barrel . And I have a shelf full of cleaner stuff but good ole soap and hot water are the best ! I have picked up when worried about supplies and been given Tripple 7 and Pyrodex but not messed with it much , just love my real deal black powder !!!!
 

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Pyrodex likes more compression than BP. If I remember from when it first came out what, 40 some years ago, it says that right on the bottle. I remember it being soft, like you can crush it between your fingers. I tried it in a muzzleloading rifle, double ML shotgun and in a Marlin 1895. The two muzzleloaders had delayed ignition with it, a problem I never had with real BP in those two firearms before or since. About the only thing with more direct ignition than a shotgun is a revolver or underhammer. The Marlin was fine. I don't remember how accuracy was, it's been so long ago. As I understand it, volume for volume, pressures are comparable.

I thought I cleaned them all good, like I usually do but in a few days they all had rusty bores. I caught it before any damage was done. It sure put a bad taste in my mouth for it. Now how can you NOT get a shotgun barrel clean?
 

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Vic @sharps4590 and Dave @Grizzley1. Can you stuff Pyrodex in a case like you can BP? Are there any different pressure issues?
I've never used anything but real black in a bp cartridge (.45-70) @BlackEagle has used the subs in his rifles as real black is more tightly regulated over there in Great Britain.
 

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Vic @sharps4590 and Dave @Grizzley1. Can you stuff Pyrodex in a case like you can BP? Are there any different pressure issues?
You have to use it volume to volume. Most black powder cartridge loads used full cases of powder anyway so it's not like you're going to overcharge one using a 1:1 ratio by volume. You can get a heavier charge with Pyrodex than with bp because it compresses more. I've used it in muzzle loading rifles and shotguns and cap and ball revolvers not to mention my 44-40's, .38 special, .45 ACP in my 1911 and 30-30. The only thing I had that had a delayed ignition with Pyrodex was in my 63 Sharps. A Sharps has a long firing channel with two turns. That was just too much for Pyro. It still fired but it was like a poorly timed flintlock. Cleanup is the same as with real bp. To me real bp will rust faster. I seldom clean anything the same day I shoot it. Sometimes its a couple of days. I've had no rust or corrosion with Pyro doing it like that. I've never had to go back and clean anything a second time.
 
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