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Bullet Casting-Sizing question

3K views 25 replies 11 participants last post by  sharps4590 
#1 ·
Is it necessary to size bullets after powder coating them if they are .001-.002 over slugged barrel dimensions?
 
#2 ·
No. Ideally, you would cast the bullet the right size to begin with so all you had to do is lube them and then load. Some have found out that you can now take bullets cast from a mold that throws them under size and powder coat them to get them to the size needed. So if your are .001 to .002 over slugged barrel size after you are done powder coating, then you are fine. Load them and go shoot.
 
#5 ·
Most people try to size their cast bullets a thousandths or two over the bore size for best accuracy. I'm not into casting as much as I used to be, and the 'powder coat' idea is new to me. I just cast, size my bullets a little over the slugged bore measurement, use an Alox bullet lube and load them up.

I guess I'm not yet convinced that powder coating really has any advantages. The bullets look great, but from a mechanical point-of-view the bullet diameter, lead hardness and lube choice are critical. The powder coating on the bearing surfaces of the bullet are scrubbed away on firing as the bullet engages the rifling - so I don't see how it helps with anything.

I'd like to see a side-by-side comparison with two loads (one bullet coated and one not) fired from the same weapon with the same charge to compare accuracy. That would convince me one way or the other.
 
#10 ·
I don't PC a lot, but one place I think it would work well is with soft cast bullet's. The one's I have done, I size first and put on gas check as needed, PC and then resize one more time. If the second resize is necessary, I haven't a clue! But after doing it a bit, I don't find it hurt's a thing.
 
#17 ·
Keep in mind if your using a tumble lube mold your bullets most likely can be loaded as dropped without sizing. All of my .45ACP molds are .452

Also, I let my cast bullets sit for a minimum of 2 weeks before loading them, they'll gain a little hardness.
 
#18 ·
That looks like a dandy for the .45ACP. Might even work pretty well for a plinker for the .45 Colt. If you look on Ebay, sometimes you will find some decent deals on bullet lube. I like the old Lyman Alox lube. I've got the Lyman (850?) sizer/lubricator that uses the hollow sticks. You need to find the right sticks - some of the newer ones are designed to use in a heated press, and some sticks are not hollow. The old lube doesn't need to be heated - I've used Alox for many years and it is a great bullet lube.

The "As-Cast" bullet diameter measurement can vary depending on the lead/tin/antimony content of your metal. I like to size my bullets to ensure they are consistent, but I use scrap lead and range pick-up lead.

I just now finished up loading 200 .38 Specials with 158 grain cast round nose bullets. One different step you will find is wiping excess bullet lube/wax from the ammo as you put them into your ammo boxes.
 
#19 ·
That looks like a dandy for the .45ACP. Might even work pretty well for a plinker for the .45 Colt. If you look on Ebay, sometimes you will find some decent deals on bullet lube. I like the old Lyman Alox lube. I've got the Lyman (850?) sizer/lubricator that uses the hollow sticks. You need to find the right sticks - some of the newer ones are designed to use in a heated press, and some sticks are not hollow. The old lube doesn't need to be heated - I've used Alox for many years and it is a great bullet lube.

The "As-Cast" bullet diameter measurement can vary depending on the lead/tin/antimony content of your metal. I like to size my bullets to ensure they are consistent, but I use scrap lead and range pick-up lead.

I just now finished up loading 200 .38 Specials with 158 grain cast round nose bullets. One different step you will find is wiping excess bullet lube/wax from the ammo as you put them into your ammo boxes.
Whoa! Baby steps! :) I gotta see if I like it or not. I looked at the lubrisizers, heated plates, researched lubes, etc, but for now, I'm limited to see what shows up on Ebay for a good price. :)
Meanwhile, I'll experiment with PC. I had great sucess with PC .357 mag sample pack last fall.
The .45 Colt bullets I think I'll use Alox, just not right to have a colored bullet in an American Icon like the Peacemaker. ;)

I am curious how the .45-70 405 gr cast bullets will do with a PC bullet in the trapdoor (behind my most accurate smokeless load -26 gr AA5744). To date I have been using lead (aloxed) bullets on the trapdoor these past 4 years of ownership.

The Win94 loves 38-55 powder coated bullets (By Missouri Bullet co.)
 
#21 ·
#22 · (Edited)
Mak - that is a big door you opened up on the Trapdoor. There were many .45-70 rifles made of different designs, but the Trapdoor is unique. The rifling is different on those than the rest. You are fine to use a solid base bullet with the 500 grain bullets (as long as the lead is soft enough to fill the bore on firing), but for the lighter 405 grain bullets you need a hollow base bullet and a lead content without any antimony (hardener) to allow the skirt of the bullet to deform and seal that Springfield 3 groove barrel. Lee makes a dandy-cheap hollow base mold........

Modern, conventional style hard bullets work fine in Sharps and Winchester .45-70s because they use totally different rifling. Not so the Springfield. That's a whole 'nother animule. Again I can't add anything about PC bullets because I'm a dinosaur and don't use 'em.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Jim, I've heard of good success with the hollow based 405 gr before. I don't think "I NEED 405 HB" though. Allow me to tell you my research and experimentation.

The hollow base was developed by the U.S. Govt for the trapdoor to seal the bore when shooting Black Powder as you said. I don't doubt that hollow based 405gr bullets would solved any accuracy problems with a well worn old trapdoor .45-70 barrel. My particular barrel is pristine as was the rifle when I received it.

Now, my most accurate load at 100 and 200 yards is with smokeless powder and a plain base 405 bullet. Most people I talk to in the Trapdoor world shoot a plain base 405 or 500 gr bullet and with good success.

Currently I am shooting 405 gr plain base with smokeless powder and able to produce 3" group or tighter at 100 yards. That's good enough for me considering the Army was "sold" on the trapdoor because it could group 4".

The bullets I've been using are the Missouri Bullets 405 -running 18 BHN with #2 lyman, are plain base- 405 gr .From my experimentation using 385, 405,500 and 525, the 405 gr plain base is the best bullet for my rifle with SMOKELESS powder that I've tested at 100 and 200 yards. They run .459 and my barrel slugs at .458, just as it should.

I also have a 500 gr bullets plain base from Dan (The Bullet Man) in Dell, MT.

My Tests: Black Powder; The 405 plain base side by side with the 500 gr plain base --> 500 gr was more accurate.
Smokeless Powder; The 405 plain base with smokeless performed the best, and the 500 gr BP a close 2nd.

Now I admit, I've not fired 405 gr hollow base with black powder, nor know where to find them, but if I did, I'd bet a six pack they wouldn't beat the solid base I'm using now. :)

Bottom line, if shooting smokeless, plain base is fine. You don't need a HB unless you have poor rifling or your barrel slugs out larger tha .459 (I've heard of trapdoors slugging at .461!)

Now, I'll have to put that Lee HB mold on my wish list so that I can validate my "I don't need no stinkin' HB base" claim. :)
 
#24 ·
I'd take that 'six pack' bet on a hot day with you. It is frozen outside at the moment, so the Brewskis have to wait. (The dog went outside barking last night and the sound just froze and fell to the ground. Have to wait 'till Spring to find out what she was barking at;).)

Shooting smokeless vs. black powder in the .45-70 is comparing 'apples to oranges'. I've used a Lyman 385 grain flat base for many years - and with many smokeless powder combinations. That bullet design never gave any better an "OK" 5" 100 yard shot group. The best smokeless accuracy I've gotten so far from my Trapdoor has been with the cheap Lee 405 grain HB and IMR-3031 powder and fairly soft cast bullets. It will hold 3" or under at 100 yards. My bore is decent - not pristine.

I do load black powder M1886 duplicate loads (just for the feel, smell and "romance" of shooting what the Old Timers used to use). I don't argue what anyone says about shooting BP cartridges - it IS a PITA to clean afterwards. Both the rifle and the brass. It is enjoyable - but not something I do on any regular basis.
 
#25 ·
I don't mind shooting BP with the trapdoor. Pretty easy to clean. My ammo box is half and half (405 smokeless and 500 BP) these days. One for 100 yards, the other for 200 yard range.

The Win94 in 38-55 is a different animal, sometimes that BP residue starts getting down in the linkage during bullet extraction and its a PITA. I've switched to just shoot smokeless with the Win 94 (Modern day rifle, not an old one)
 
#26 ·
Mak, you figured out about as quick as I did that for me BP and a lever rifle don't go together. A single shot where you can clean from the breech end and that breaks down easily is, as Jim said, "a different animule". Except for those with less than perfect bores mine will all be clean in 4-6 patches, even with the heaviest, hardest caked on fouling. Would that my smokeless rifles would clean that easily.
 
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