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In the state of michigan , you can hunt in the shotgun part of the state with a rifle, that has a straight walled cartridge. The cartridge can be no longer then 1.80 inches . My question is if I cut a 444 marlin case to 1.80 inches and load to a similar velocity. providing it will cycle in the gun. Will it damage the chamber. The idea is to produce a gun that has more power then the 450 remington and is still leagle in michigan,
 

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Are you saying that you want to cut it down and still load to normal fps/energy?
 
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Are you saying that you want to cut it down and still load to normal fps/energy?
Using different powders ,with pressures that are the same or less for that gun, that might be possible. I am not saying I would do it,but the ballistics are very close to the 450 rem and 454 cassul ballistics. Might make for a new wild cat cartridge. since I have a 444 marlin and don't want to damage the chamber. I was hoping that it may have already been tried and what was the outcome.
 

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If you don't shoot many rounds, no, I don't believe it will hurt the chamber. If you shoot it a lot, yes, I believe the chamber would be eroded just in front of the case mouth. I play with a lot of old rifles and it's pretty easy to tell which ones were used a lot. Just in front of the case mouth there is a ring of erosion. What that will do is preclude the use of the 444 because the case will expand into that eroded ring, making for difficult extraction and a bad spot on the brass. I understand the steels of today are some better than those of 50-120 years ago but, the possibility/probability erosion remains.

I think chamber erosion is quite possible because to achieve your goal you're going to have to use faster burning powders which will also be hotter.

I think you're idea is interesting. Depending on how much you want to spend it might be worth finding another rifle in say 30-30 or 35 Rem. There is several guys who will re-bore, re-rifle and rechamber the original barrel for not all that much money. In either cartridge I mention re-boring and re-chambering would more than clean up the old chamber. Then you would have that dedicated wildcat. I like it.

One question might be how would Michigan Game Dept. view just changing the cartridge length. The rifle will still be marked 444 Marlin. Do they carry a tape measure or calipers with them? In Missouri, I wouldn't trust them to be smart enough to understand the concept.
 

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Aside from trying to get load data to accommodate a shorter case, the accuracy I believe would in all probability suffer. The bullet would have to transit a longer and oversized freebore. The bullet would most likely enter the actual chamber freebore non concentric and then engage the rifling non concentric. In a simple term, the bullet would wobble transiting the barrel exiting the barrel like a badly tossed football.
241286

The chamber drawing (bottom image) you will notice a dimension 1.800 (45.72) B. This would illustrate the amount of oversized freebore. If you could load the bullet into the cartridge case long, you mite be able to mitigate the oversized freebore. You could probably achieve that with cast 260-270 grain or a long jacketed hollow point bullet. Another caveat is with the cartridge case shortened, carbon will build up in that .4508 gap between the cartridge case mouth and freebore start. This would require to cleaned out to fire a full length 444 Marlin cartridge.

This
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I don't think I'd want to cut the case down that much and load it that hot.
the 450 bushmaster 454 cassul are loaded in shorter cases with the same velocities , pressures and bullet weights.

If you don't shoot many rounds, no, I don't believe it will hurt the chamber. If you shoot it a lot, yes, I believe the chamber would be eroded just in front of the case mouth. I play with a lot of old rifles and it's pretty easy to tell which ones were used a lot. Just in front of the case mouth there is a ring of erosion. What that will do is preclude the use of the 444 because the case will expand into that eroded ring, making for difficult extraction and a bad spot on the brass. I understand the steels of today are some better than those of 50-120 years ago but, the possibility/probability erosion remains.

I think chamber erosion is quite possible because to achieve your goal you're going to have to use faster burning powders which will also be hotter.

I think you're idea is interesting. Depending on how much you want to spend it might be worth finding another rifle in say 30-30 or 35 Rem. There is several guys who will re-bore, re-rifle and rechamber the original barrel for not all that much money. In either cartridge I mention re-boring and re-chambering would more than clean up the old chamber. Then you would have that dedicated wildcat. I like it.

One question might be how would Michigan Game Dept. view just changing the cartridge length. The rifle will still be marked 444 Marlin. Do they carry a tape measure or calipers with them? In Missouri, I wouldn't trust them to be smart enough to understand the concept.
good answer. The bullet and case is the same as the 44 remmington mag.,only twice as long. Perhaps this would be a good rechamber in a 44 mag bolt gun first.

Aside from trying to get load data to accommodate a shorter case, the accuracy I believe would in all probability suffer. The bullet would have to transit a longer and oversized freebore. The bullet would most likely enter the actual chamber freebore non concentric and then engage the rifling non concentric. In a simple term, the bullet would wobble transiting the barrel exiting the barrel like a badly tossed football. View attachment 241286
The chamber drawing (bottom image) you will notice a dimension 1.800 (45.72) B. This would illustrate the amount of oversized freebore. If you could load the bullet into the cartridge case long, you mite be able to mitigate the oversized freebore. You could probably achieve that with cast 260-270 grain or a long jacketed hollow point bullet. Another caveat is with the cartridge case shortened, carbon will build up in that .4508 gap between the cartridge case mouth and freebore start. This would require to cleaned out to fire a full length 444 Marlin cartridge.
makes sense, thanks
 

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PRR, 98% of the time I'd agree with that. However, I have two rifles that don't play by that rule and others it doesn't make a lot of difference. They're plenty more than accurate enough for deer at 200 yards. Fly's in the face of convention but that's the way they shoot. You just never know till you try...
 

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One question might be how would Michigan Game Dept. view just changing the cartridge length. The rifle will still be marked 444 Marlin. Do they carry a tape measure or calipers with them? In Missouri, I wouldn't trust them to be smart enough to understand the concept.
I would be surprised if they didn’t take your rifle and fine, jail whatever they do there. They probably have a list of acceptable cartridges and the rifle says 444. You might be able to go to court and get it straight but maybe not. Look at the bright side it’s new gun shopping!!!!
 

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^^^
Sounds a little like what might have been happening with the .357 Max years ago. Loaded hot with lighter bullets they were flame cutting the top strap enough that Ruger discontinued them. I'm not informed enough on these things but my gunsmith often poo pood the idea of rechambering a TC Contender with exactly what you are describing for your rifle. I wish I could remember the terms he was using back then. I'm out of my league here, but it seems like TC preferred a bottleneck like the Herrett cartridges when they went hotter. I'm sure the rifle would not be bothered by your round if properly chambered. We do this all the time with 44 mag/44 special and 357/38s with just a cleaning, but sharps may have a point.

As sharps says, you would have to be careful with your Dept of Conservation and the officers. In Illinois we had requirements like yours for handguns. One was case length and another was 500 foot pounds of energy from a published source, usually one like a .44 Mag that already met that requirement. So, if I handloaded a .45 Colt that hot for my Ruger, I brought along loading data and hoped the officer would understand. I ran it by some officers once and they thought I'd be ok, but you might want to check.

One crazy thing that happened to me when I first started muzzloader hunting was using a ,44 in a sabot in a 50 cal barrel. One yahootie told me that one conservation officer in the county I was hunting was ticketing folks because a measured .429 round did not meet the .44 cal spec. Sounded crazy, but how was I to know for sure, so I switched to .45s in sabots and lost alot of accuracy the first round had given me. Later, every officer I inquired of this about never heard of anything so crazy.
 

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Yes G-2 but, the 38 Spl. and 44 Spl. are significantly more tame than what treeguy is talking about. Having said that, I suspect it would take a lot of rounds before erosion became a problem but, as an effect it does exist. Powders today are a lot less erosive than they were back in the 20's, 30's and 40's.

Locally I'd be more concerned about what Mo. Dept. of Conservation agents would do. The vast majority of them today know just enough about firearms, cartridges and ballistics to be dangerous and you can't talk to or reason with them. They WILL take your firearm. You get it back after court but there would be some strong words at the time of the so called offense and personally, I'd have to get an attorney, fight it and present myself not only as the defendant but as a professional witness. I expect the prosecutor would quickly get a glazed look on his face and with coaching from me my defense attorney would have the agent looking like a fool. Besides that, they guy I'd get for my attorney is also a gun guy. It might be fun....lol!!!
 
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Trying to "game the system" is not a good idea. What would a game warden look at if he wanted to examine your rifle? Would he whip out a dial caliper and a loading manual, or would he simply look at the roll mark on the barrel?

Just a bad idea.
 

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I don't think treeguy is trying to game the system. Seems to me he's wanting to play within the rules and get a more powerful cartridge. (The 454 Casull is probably the smartest, easiest and most economical). The difficulty as I see it is precisely what you, I and others are bringing up, the Game, Fish, Wildlife or whatever it's called up there. If they have a list it's a sure thing that cartridge won't be on it and if it's a rechambered rifle it probably better be re-stamped as to the cartridge, whatever it would be named.
 

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I agree about the ignorance of G&F. I once got into an argument with a game warden in MI during the summer small game season about hunting crows with a 25/06. I was done hunting for the day and was back at me when this moron confronted me and was trying to tell me that my rifle and cartridge was illegal. I had the current hunting regulation hand book on me as I had that same day gone to the state park office and asked this guy’s boss about hunting with my rifle and cartridge. This moron still didn’t believe me nor would he read the regulation and at gun point tried to confiscate my rifle. I informed him that he did that, that he would be in a world of pooh and to follow me back to the state parks office and get his boss to set him straight. He then declined to do that and I left and reported him to his boss. I don’t know what transpired after that, but that game warden never bothered me again.
 

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I figgered that...but there's more I don't know than I do.
 

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Aside from trying to get load data to accommodate a shorter case, the accuracy I believe would in all probability suffer. The bullet would have to transit a longer and oversized freebore. The bullet would most likely enter the actual chamber freebore non concentric and then engage the rifling non concentric. In a simple term, the bullet would wobble transiting the barrel exiting the barrel like a badly tossed football. View attachment 241286
The chamber drawing (bottom image) you will notice a dimension 1.800 (45.72) B. This would illustrate the amount of oversized freebore. If you could load the bullet into the cartridge case long, you mite be able to mitigate the oversized freebore. You could probably achieve that with cast 260-270 grain or a long jacketed hollow point bullet. Another caveat is with the cartridge case shortened, carbon will build up in that .4508 gap between the cartridge case mouth and freebore start. This would require to cleaned out to fire a full length 444 Marlin cartridge.

This
I was thinking higher pressure with the idea of non-concentric bullet engagement also.
 
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