Can we prepare for NBC Warfare....???

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ruffitt, Feb 27, 2003.

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  1. ruffitt

    ruffitt *TFF Admin Staff* In Heaven Now

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    polishshooter
    (9/25/01 10:27:41 am)
    Can we prepare for NBC Warfare....???
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    OK, guys, if you are like me, you are pretty well set for basic "survival," i.e., with guns, and ammo, hunting supplies, possible food, and other necessities, but without looking like a wacko Y2K "survivalist."

    But while civil unrest and fighting in the streets at this time is a remote threat, terrorist Nuclear/Biological/Chemical attacks MAY be a real threat in the immediate future for us.

    Outside of what I read in the History books on WWI, and recent stuff from Iraq/Iran, and sparse information from current military info, I am stumped by what we can do to prepare.

    How about a serious discussion on the subject? What are YOU doing?

    I mean, for example, we have all seen the $13 Israeli Gas Masks on the market at shows...should we all get one, what would it help against?

    I realize full NBC gear is necessary for bio warfare, and even that may be worthless without antidote(s)instantly available, as well as against contact chemical nerve agents, so the masks would be worthless with them alone and may encourage stupidity, BUT is there ANYTHING a prudent guy should do to protect his family?

    Maybe some guys/gals with recent military training in NBC, or maybe you EMTs/Medical types with training on treating such can contribute a lot of valuable, and practical, information that would help the rest of us.

    I know many will adopt the "bend over and kiss your @ss goodbye" philosophy, but a thoughtful discussion wouldn't hurt anybody, and maybe make us THINK.

    What prompted this was a scroll this morning on the bottom of the screen on MSNBC (fitting?) that "The WHO has warned western nations to prepare for possible chemical/Bio terrorist attacks."

    And the fact the "cropdusters" were grounded the past two days nationwide....

    Just set me to thinking...may have to hit the 'brary and do some research...
    I'm so PROUD to be an AMERICAN...

    Edited by: polishshooter at: 9/25/01 11:35:36 am

    gpostal
    (9/25/01 10:48:17 am)
    Re: Can we prepare for NBC Warfare....???
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    i bought a few gas mask way back during the gulf war ,after i bought them they went up to around thirty dollars, i am as set as i can be ,with out going in debt ,or digging under ground ,i have the spring house in the basement ,not only does it bring in cold water ,it works like a refrigerator ,that is what it was designed for ,i also have a large clean barn for anybody hat might show up

    the guns and ammo go without saying ,i have stocked up on anything but my usual

    polishshooter
    (9/25/01 11:03:48 am)
    Re: Can we prepare for NBC Warfare....???
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    Yeah, I just may order four of those Israelis, with a few extra filters for $5 each too...

    Probably won't do me any good if I need it, but maybe a little (even false?) "peace of mind" is worth the $60 or so...and would definitely be better than a wet hanky...

    Anybody know if they have a "shelf life?"
    I'm so PROUD to be an AMERICAN...

    Bob In St Louis
    9/25/01 11:20:43 am)

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    Any rubber/plasticized rubber product like respirator masks have a shelf life of around 5 to 7 years. The solvents that make the rubber pliable slowly evaporate out, making the rubber more brittle. Most of these Israeli gas masks are already garbage by the time you get them. - Why do you think they are surplus? They have passed their shelf life. I have to depend on respirators on a daily basis in my line of work, and I get a new respirator every five years as a normal course of operation.

    The whole concept of these gas masks are a joke anyway unless you are trained in the proper use of them.
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

    LIKTOSHOOT
    (9/25/01 12:59:08 pm)
    Re: Can we prepare for NBC Warfare....???
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    This whole thing is almost funny if the threat wasn`t so real(?) Most of these BIO/Chemical agents fall into the your dead anyway catogory, want to know why??? Pretty simple.

    Most take 24, 48, 72 hours to take effect, so they could have been released days before you ever here about it, if you are in the area of release.......you are already dead, you just don`t know it yet. Say-la-V
    America, we are the symbol of Freedom and Liberty......

    polishshooter
    (9/25/01 3:31:24 pm)
    Re: Can we prepare for NBC Warfare....???
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    So Bob, where do you get your decent respirators?

    You are right about the Bio LTS, but there are some pretty simple chemical agents that have been used since WWI, like Mustard gas and Phosgene, that may be what they use by the simple fact they are simple to make and transport...masks DO protect against them somewhat, and I got to believe to have the volume needed to use a cropduster as a delivery system we would be talking volume...not vials of biological agents, but barrels of the stuff.

    Even the sarin nerve agent used in the Tokyo Subway wasn't of any volume at all...so I believe, just my guess, they would dry to "dust" a large concentration of people (like maybe a filled stadium?) with a relatively simple gas targeted at lungs and other mucous membranes, ie, mustard or phosgene or the like....

    And a mask might help...but then again, those Israeli masks were issued by the government of Israel en masse to the civilians during the Gulf War...I wonder if anything like that is contemplated by the "Secretary of Homeland Defense...?"

    Geez, 280 million is a lot of masks, though...
    I'm so PROUD to be an AMERICAN...

    Flhunter
    (9/25/01 3:54:57 pm)
    Re: Can we prepare for NBC Warfare....???
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    How many gallons does a typical crop duster hold? Maybe they wanted it for another gas bomb.

    If there was the use of either bio/chemical weapons or even a small nuke over here. My question would be.....Would we use the same thing over there? Some of them countries that are on our side now might feel a little different about us if we did.

    What would happen if they started sending infected terrorist over here? Would we shut down all travel into our country? Keep our kids home from school? Stay home cause your afraid if you went out you could catch something?



    Guns don't cause crime anymore than flies caues garbage.

    NeoDebo
    (9/25/01 4:11:19 pm)
    Re: Can we prepare for NBC Warfare....???
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    I do not see how it is possible to use a crop duster to deliver an effective quantity of chemical agent. It is likely that the crew loading the stuff would kill themselves--dead terrorists can't fly. A quantity of chemical agent sufficient for mass killing would be very difficult to deliver with a crop duster--IMHO.

    Biological agents, perhaps, depending on what the agent is, but even then I doubt that a great deal of harm could be done, except to a (relative) few.

    Perhaps a bio weapon loaded into a crop duster and crashed/sprayed into/onto a statium full of people might work. The logistics of putting such an attack together so that it could be carried out effectively makes such a scenario very unlikely--IMHO.

    Why not just infect several hundred suicide volunteers and send them on a trip through the target country with the idea of infecting as many as possible and as rapidly as possible?

    My worst fear is a small nuke, either packed in, or assembled at/near the target site. Such a device detonated in NYC would do untold damage. Not only would many people be killed and much property destroyed, but great long-lasting damage would be done to the necessary systems that support our society.

    Zigzag2
    (9/25/01 4:37:10 pm)
    Re: Can we prepare for NBC Warfare....???
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    I can remember as a child, a friend of mines family had a underground fall-out-shelter. It was the real McCoy...
    it was like a submarine under ground, equipted with fold down bunks and a hand operated fresh air exchange.
    What a piece of mind that would give today.

    I for 1, would be open to any suggestions for a better self preservation... Is it possible?

    Secondly... I'm fearful of the terms of "TERRORISM", after listening to the Senate hearings... the open ended legislation that's being asked for, leaves anyone that is considered a threat a "TERRORIST"

    Organinzed crime is a faculty of those doing crime for money...

    What I understand thus far, "TERRORISM" covers all the rest...

    BEWARE, of what is being asked for...

    God Bless America

    Zig/Rick


    hammer4nc
    (9/25/01 6:02:17 pm)
    Re: Can we prepare for NBC Warfare....???
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    Following most of what's been posted...the concept of keeping a "bug-out bag" packed, i.e., a duffel with supplies for WTSHTF, seems a little less off-the-wall, now, eh?

    Echoing polishshooters question regarding proper filter selection...Bob in STL, can you post any links re: filters types for specific (simple) chem agents, and suppliers?? I'm guessing the filters for organic compounds would be useful...but thats just a guess.

    I shopped for, and bought a gas mask about a year ago...chose the "MCU2" style (has the big windhshield instead of round eyeholes), I believe these are standard issue for police now. Gives somewhat better visibility, includes drink straw, and mic hookup. One guy in Atlanta was auctioning off a few that had been issued for the 96 olympics. Prior to this panic, they appeared from time to time on the gun auctions, for $30-$50.

    My main thought was to get through a smoky or teargas environment, re: urban conflict. I harbor no illusions about protection against nerve or bio agents with incubation periods, etc. The protocols for full suit-up, decontamination, etc. seem to be a team proposition beyond the scope of "civilian" training, anyway.

    We're getting some local news stories about how all the surplus and survival stores have sold out of gasmasks, and prices are spiking (on ebay auctions @$300!!, I've heard)...might be a good time to become knowledgeable on what's available, and wait for the prices to settle down a bit before buying.


    Bob In St Louis
    (9/25/01 6:36:33 pm)
    Re: Can we prepare for NBC Warfare....???
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    Hopefully I will be back at work tomorrow, and I will look up some of the suppliers for the environmental industry. Several of the respirator suppliers are SurvivAir, MSA, and a couple others that my current antihistimine addled brain don't remember. There is a combo cartridge that is rated for all sorts of solvents, dusts, acids etc. They are color coded for the protection factor, and these are yellow and magenta. I'll try to get back tomorrow with better info. Right now the pink monkeys are attacking me with the Uranus anal probe.
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

    polishshooter
    (9/25/01 8:18:53 pm)
    Re: Can we prepare for NBC Warfare....???
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    Do you have to shave the dreadlocks to get an airtight fit for that probe, just like you need to do to your face to get a gas mask to protect you?
    I'm so PROUD to be an AMERICAN...

    polishshooter
    (9/25/01 8:55:37 pm)
    Re: Can we prepare for NBC Warfare....???
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    ...and just thinking, if I WAS to order some of those $13 Israeli masks and hang them out on Ebay for say $25 to start, would I be "profiteering?"
    I'm so PROUD to be an AMERICAN...

    Spanish Cruffler
    (9/26/01 5:33:47 am)
    Re: Can we prepare for NBC Warfare....???
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    OK - back at work, semi-back to clear thinking. A couple of on-line locations of vendors for environmental products used in the environmental cleanup industry are:

    www.mmm.com/market/safety/ohes2/

    www.emssales.net/download.html

    Several respirator brands are Survivair, and North. I tend to like the North brand respirators better. There are all sorts of filter cartridges available, one that is a combination cartridge with a high rating is best all round.

    gpostal
    (9/26/01 8:27:36 am)
    Re: Can we prepare for NBC Warfare....???
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    thanks for the ideal polish ,the cheap Israeli ones are going for as high as 162.00 and up ,i have three or four in the garage ,they are getting listed today

    polishshooter
    (9/26/01 11:39:19 am)
    Re: Can we prepare for NBC Warfare....???
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    I went to order some from a catalogue I had, they've been all gone for 6 days...

    Well, that's a good thing I guess, I either would have had a false sense of security, or a guilty conscience if I just relisted and made an ungodly profit...

    The order taker was suggesting we contact our congressmen, and ask to have them issued, or available through the government...

    I wonder how many people are doing just that...no offense, but I think this would be just another feel-good expensive worthless government hand-out program, which means it will probably happen soon...
    I'm so PROUD to be an AMERICAN...
     
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