The Firearms Forum banner

1 - 13 of 13 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,094 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I just went though a long painful episode of trying to load some Hornady .45 caliber 185 g, fmj, swc bullets and could not get a good crimp on them. The bullets would move down the case with just a little thumb pressure no matter how much crimp I applied.

I was using a brand new 4-die set of Lyman .45 caliber dies and decided the Lyman taper crimp die was no good. So I thought "I'll take care of that and get myself a Lee FCD". It came in yesterday and I started loading today, but guess what - same problem.

I was about at my wits end when I decided to measure the diameter of some of the bullets. Was I surprised. I measured 65 of 100 bullets and 31 (48%) were between .444" and .448". The rest were exactly .450". Not one single bullet was .451" or greater.

I called Hornady CS and the bullets are on their way back. I'll be interested to see what happens.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,259 Posts
That's what happens when people get stricken with chicken little syndrome and rush to buy every component off the shelf. Companies can't keep up with demand and say screw QC we have to get stuff on shelves.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,207 Posts
yep..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,034 Posts
wow.. what's happening to hornady.

I know every co has their problems.. but this is getting bad.

I'm always leary of hornady brass after having to replace some decap stems in rcbs dies. I now only run hornady brass thru a lee uni decapper first till I know they are ok.

and now this... bad projectiles?

what's the deal.

at least with lee.. you pay economy and know you are getting economy.

hornady stuff ain't cheap ($$)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,987 Posts
I'm with Stev on this one. That's about the last thing I'd have expected from Hornady. I think I'd have miked my cases though, if the sizeing dies were new or if I hadn't used them before. I'd never suspect that .45 pistol bullets could have been that far off (.444 - .448?!!) Yup, they shoulda been at least .451.

Contact Hornady. Who knows - maybe they'll send you a couple free boxes of bullets for thier screwup. Doesn't make them look very good, word like this getting around.

I have run across the RARE case that had enough 'springyness' in it that it wouldn't take resizeing worth a darn and the bullets would be loose in the case after sizeing and seating/crimping. In 40+ years I've had maybe 5 of those and I think those were mostly .45ACP.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,094 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
I'm with Stev on this one. That's about the last thing I'd have expected from Hornady. I think I'd have miked my cases though, if the sizeing dies were new or if I hadn't used them before. I'd never suspect that .45 pistol bullets could have been that far off (.444 - .448?!!) Yup, they shoulda been at least .451.

Contact Hornady. Who knows - maybe they'll send you a couple free boxes of bullets for thier screwup. Doesn't make them look very good, word like this getting around.

I have run across the RARE case that had enough 'springyness' in it that it wouldn't take resizeing worth a darn and the bullets would be loose in the case after sizeing and seating/crimping. In 40+ years I've had maybe 5 of those and I think those were mostly .45ACP.
Actually I did measure the Lyman size die and the Lee FCD. The sizing die was 0.467 and the FCD was .475. I also have a chamber checker (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/74...dge-gage-9mm-luger-38-super-40-s-and-w-45-acp) and it measures 0.481 which is exactly the SAAMI chamber diameter.

I routinely check empty cases and loaded rounds using the chamber checker and they all passed.

I have a second box of Hornady .45 caliber, 185 gr, fmj, swc with a different lot number. I measured about 50 of those and every single one measured exactly 0.450". None measured 0.451" or greater. I weighted about 50 bullets from each lot and the weight was pretty dead on at 185 grains. Even the weight of the undersized was 185 grains.

I bought two boxes of Speer .45, 185 g, FMJ, SWC and measured about 50 of those and every one was between .451" and .453".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,066 Posts
stev32k:

A couple of points:

Hornady has been getting a lot of bad press here lately: Progressive presses and their auto advance mechanisms and now bullets.

Something is happening at Hornady. It may be the pressure to produce and a reduction in Quality Control or it could be a financial problem...but it is not good.

On crimping:

To set the stage: I do not like LEE products. But the one product of theirs I do buy because it is so good is the LEE Factory Crimp Die (FCD) FOR RIFLE CARTRIDGES. It works with a collet to squeeze the case horizontally rather than vertically (which with bad adjustment can collapse or deform the shoulder of the case). The PISTOL version is completely different. It is nothing more that a regular crimper with a sizing ring in the bottom of the die. It works vertically not horizontally as does the rifle version. If the regular crimp die would not crimp undersized bullet then the LEE FCD for pistol will do no better. It is typical of LEE to mislead the customers with, in this case, not explaining the difference and using the same "FCD" name when the products are completely different in design. If you had encountered this problem on a rifle caliber the LEE FCD would have saved the day for crimping (but not for accuracy).

Accuracy is based on consistency. Loose bullets in the cases are loose in the bore of the gun and all that leads to reduced accuracy because the bullet can get cocked in the bore and leave the gun cocked and unstable aerodynamically. While it is possible to change the sizing die button on the primer decapping rod to accommodate the smaller size bullet, the accuracy result would still be not so good (bullet still loose in the bore). Then you would have to separate the good bullets from the bad bullets and use different primer decapping rods. It is best to get good replacement bullets.


LDBennett
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,094 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
There are two things I like about the Lee FCD. First is the ease of setting up. It is dead simple and quick. Just run the round into the die all the way then screw down the crimp ring until it stops, then lower the ram and screw down the crimp ring about ½ to ¾ turn and it's set. That has worked every time for me. The second is the carbide sizing ring. It may be redundant, but I still like having it there as kind of a belt and suspender approach.

As for Hornady my guess is that QC is getting behind as production is ramped up. I feel sure that the production people are under a lot of pressure to produce a lot of product fast and that may be overwhelming the QC people. I have a manufacturing background and have seen that happen many times. A sudden production increase can cause a significant bottle neck in the QC department which slows down shipments. To speed up shipments QC is ordered to cut corners, work overtime, and reduce the number and frequency of tests and measurements - just get product out the door. When that happens the plant is normally prepared to accept higher than normal customer complaints.+

I expect Hornady dealers and distributors are on the phone every day asking where their orders are and why is it taking so long to get product? That kind of pressure filters down though the whole organization.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,987 Posts
This isn't too huge of a leap - you are talking about QC at Hornady. That's a big part of Customer Service.

I just cancelled my order with Lyman for a .223 case guage. Had the darn thing on order since the end of January, and I keep getting "2 Weeks" on the expected delivery to Lyman. Then they have to ship it to me (whenever THEY get it). I just went ahead and ordered what I needed on ##bay.

LYMAN USED TO MAKE THEIR OWN QUALITY PRODUCTS. NOW THEY OUT SOURCE IT. So my questions is this: What difference does it now make if it's Lyman, RCBS, Dillon, or Jack The Ragman who makes it for all three of the others?

Been buying from Lyman for many more years than I'd like to admit to, but their customer service has gone the way of the dinosaur. People don't work at places like that as a career anymore - "It's just a job".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,094 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
I got a call today from Hornady. They confirmed that a majority of the bullets in that box were undersized. The guy I talked to said he has seen that before, but not very often. I tried to get more details about what caused it or how did they slip though, but he didn't want to give out that kind of information. I also asked if they had any other complaints about the same lot number, but he said he didn't know.

I'm a little disappointed that all they are going to do is replace that one box. I spent $10 to send them back and was expecting something more.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,034 Posts
i hear ya.

you lost money on that.

that could at least have made up your postage loss with something
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,066 Posts
My experience years ago with Hornady was the same. They hold their purse close to their vest and are reluctant to open it even if the problem is theirs.

If I were you I would reward them with a letter to the CEO, explaining the situation and your expectations with the promise not to buy anymore Hornady products unless the CEO makes this right for you (pays the postage!!). Also I would threaten to tell all my friends of their stingy nature when the fault was theirs, dissuading the friends to buy Hornady products. I'd also mention the power of the internet.

I had a problem with a Texas High Standard pistol a couple of year ago. I ranted about it every time I could on the Rimfire Central High Standard page. I eventually got TX High Standard's attention and they fixed the gun for free at the cost of a new frame to them. Before the fix I persuaded many to not buy any TX High Standard gun. Once fixed the gun was near perfect and I advertised that fact on the same web page and this time persuaded several to buy new TX Hi Std guns. So it can work for both parties if they co-operate.

LDBennett
 
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
Top