Capital Punishment

Discussion in 'The Constitutional & RKBA Forum' started by Pistolenschutze, Sep 30, 2007.

Should Capital Punishment be Retained?

  1. Yes, but it should be limited to the crimes for which it is now applied.

    17 vote(s)
  2. Yes, and it should be expanded to additional heinous crimes.

    78 vote(s)
  3. No, capital punishment is morally wrong and should be outlawed in modern society.

    3 vote(s)
  4. No, capital punishment is useless in the deterence of crime and should be outlawed.

    2 vote(s)
  1. I would like to propose an issue for debate here on the Constitutional Forum, one we have not discussed in any depth before, at least in so far as I am aware:

    Should the United States continue to invoke the use of capital punishment for certain crimes of a particularly heinous nature, or should we join with the majority of Western nations in outlawing its use entirely?

    This issue is one of many dimensions quite obviously, ranging from those of a Constitutional nature, to questions of moral philosophy. I've included a very simple poll, merely for the purpose of getting a feel for the majority opinion here on TFF, but please feel free to expound on any side issues you feel are appropriate to the discussion.

    I will state at the outset, and for the record, that I am strongly in favor of capital punishment for certain crimes, including, but not limited to, first degree murder, treason, and espionage, and I believe it should even be expanded to include forcable rape and child molestation. Some say that such crimes are merely the result of mental illness. In my view, 100 cc of potasium chloride will cure that illness quite handily from society's perspective. :cool: What say you?
  2. strayshot

    strayshot New Member

    Aug 6, 2005
    upper midwest
    Well, I don't mean to cast any dark clouds here. And, if I catch anyone off guard drinking their mid-morning coffee, I apologize. Don't read this any further if you have a weak stomach.

    Several years ago, at the age of 41, my older brother was murdered in cold blood. Ambushed, robbed and stabbed an excess of 70 times by two acquaintances. My brother kept a safe in his apartment for the cash he collected daily from the business he managed, in that safe was about 12 thousand dollars and that is what these two killers were after. My first question to the detectives was...why so brutal? The answer, "they didn't know how to incapacitate a person with a knife, your brother fought them until the bitter end". One of these guys blocked the door way out of the apartment and the path to my brothers shotgun, while the other did the rest.

    Both were caught by some very fine detective work. The accomplice received a mandatory 15 years and the other 20 years..both plea bargains.

    Now, how do I feel about the sentences? At the time, in the wake of the OJ thing, I was afraid if it went to trial they would both walk on a technicality. I feel differently now, they had DNA and had it gone to trial they both would have been locked up longer and possibly for life, we don't have the death sentence in my state.

    I don't feel bad about them living, in regards to the capital punishment question. I wouldn't feel bad if they were fried either. What I do feel bad about is their life in prison. The killer, was a Harvard grad and owned his own graphic arts studio. In prison, he is in charge of the prison newspaper and has access to all the state-of-the art graphic arts equipment...he's doing what he loves, has a private cell, TV and decent food. That's what disturbs me..he should be living in misery.

  3. Nighthawk

    Nighthawk New Member

    Aug 22, 2006
    South Central Texas
    punishment should fit crime. death penalty makes sure that person never kills again.
  4. southernshooter

    southernshooter New Member

    Mar 5, 2006
    Deep South Mississippi
    I am a 100% supporter of the death penalty, I just wish they would still let em hang in the court yard. Rather than a painless shot.
  5. SouthernMoss

    SouthernMoss *Admin Tech Staff*

    Jan 1, 2003
    SW MS
    Keep capital punishment, extend it to additional heinous crimes, and ENFORCE IT without dragging it out for 20 years or more with appeals. If criminals knew WITHOUT A DOUBT that they would die for committing certain crimes, they would think twice about committing them. And if they didn't think twice ... well they deserve what they get.
  6. Millwright

    Millwright Well-Known Member

    Jun 30, 2005
    Capital punnishment is for society. Yes it does remove/prevent selected individuals from committing further crimes - in or out of prison. But if it is to act as a deterrant, two things should occur. One is rapidity of execution - ideally within one year. Two, the execution must be public - in the area where the perp committed the crime. The first re-inforces the certainity of punnishment; the second confirms the lawful in their behavior. We currently do neither.

    I oppose expanding the scope of capital punnishment simply because its the ubiquitous 'slippery slope'. Once started, it could conceivably be expanded to encompass 'crimes' down to jay-walking, if they resulted in accidental death. I also oppose 'harvesting' organs from the executed for the same reasons. >MW
  7. Huck Finn

    Huck Finn Member

    Aug 17, 2004
    I believe that the death penalty is needed in certain cases. I also think that the threshold for getting the death penalty should exceed beyond a "reasonable doubt". Plenty of innocent people have been on death row who have been shown to be innocent upon further review of their cases.
    I also don't think that the death penalty serves as much of a deterrent. Rather it is used more often to plea bargain a quick (and cheap) resolution to serious cases. That alone is a good reason to keep it. To be honest, I don't think that prison is much of a deterrent to career criminals either, but that's no reason to get rid of prisons either.
    As to expanding it to include rape and child molestation, I think this is a really bad idea. I think that anyone who is capable of child rape is capable of murder as well. No doubt these criminals deserve to die (make no mistake about that). My concern is that after someone has committed a rape it would be easier for them to kill their victim. After all, the rape will have qualified them for the death penalty, so killing the victim won't make the penalty any worse and with the victim dead, even the rape charge will be harder to prove. No witness.
    There ya have it.....
  8. strayshot

    strayshot New Member

    Aug 6, 2005
    upper midwest
    I agree with that. If it can save taxes for substinence and expanding or building new prisons for these retrogressive dirt bags I'm all for it.

    As far as a deterrent, I don't think so. These creeps have either a mind set so perverted or are so whacked on dope they don't think of the consequences. I'd like to see a study on that, say Florida or Texas vs. other states without the death penalty, that would be interesting. Anyway, a deterrent for crime in general would be tough prisons. Most repeat offenders have been to prison and aren't afraid of it. Make prisons a living hell ...that will make them think twice.
  9. Jake

    Jake Member

    Sep 17, 2006
    Hang em high and bury them deep!
  10. In most states, Huck, one is supposed to find guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt and to a moral certainty." I don't see how human beings can be more certain than that without nail holes in their wrists and a crown of thorns on their heads, along with a wooden titulus above them with the words, "Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudaeorum." ;) Judicial review is also mandatory in capital cases, most often several appellate reviews. I do agree that the supreme penalty should be reserved only for the most heinous of crimes, but in my mind, that certainly includes forcable rape and most assuredly child molestation. There is logic to your argument that extending the capital statutes to include rape and pedophilia might increase the chance of victim murder, but the same argument might be used to defeat its use in cases of kidnapping with bodily injury.
  11. jeanp1948

    jeanp1948 New Member

    Sep 26, 2007
    We did away with the death penalty in 1889 in Maine. We have about 1.3 million people. We have the 3rd lowest crime rate in the nation. When we had the death penalty from about 1625 to 1889 we hanged a total of NINETEEN PEOPLE with NINE of those woman who had killed their husbands. We average about 35-40 murders in the whole state in a year. Most of these are people who know each other. How that can be explained your guess is as good as mine.
    Personally as a Catholic I believe in the sacredness of all life, that's why no abortions, no unjust wars, and no death penalty EXCEPT to ensure that the perp will no longer be able to kill again. I agree with my Church that there are instances in which there is no choice but to put someone to death but that should be the exception rather than the rule.
    I know that is not the popular view but one has to really think of what happens when death is used to punish criminals. It further cheapens life in the society in which it exits. Don't get me wrong. I have used deadly force without a seconds hesitation. One must, and is, required to protect themselves and third parties, no matter what results, if life is in jeopardy. All I am saying is that it should not be taken lightly. I am not passing judgment on others who have lost loved ones to murder, rape, and other heinous crimes. We all should follow our own conscious. May the victims and their kin be allowed to find justice as they see fit following the letter of the law, including the death penalty if that is the law of their states.
  12. charagrin

    charagrin Former Guest

    Mar 6, 2007
    I personally think that the commiter of any heinus crime needs to be taken to the woods, gutshot, and left to die slowly and painfully. I think if this was done even once all hianus crime would drop incredibly low.
    I think alot of our punishments are lax and need to be beefed up. And not just drawing out the death to make it last longer or more painful. Murdering someone needs to be met with like style of death. If a guy tortures a woman for week before killing her slowly he needs to be tortured for a week before being killed slowly.
    I know my way of thinking is harsh but I truly believe if it hapened at least once then similer crimes would lower. If it takes the painful death of 10 murderers to stop even 1 murderer from killing then the discipline fits. I do not consider someone who would wantonly hurt another human to be a person, Just a piece of trash to be dealt with. -Char
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2007
  13. Marlin T

    Marlin T Well-Known Member

    Jul 8, 2005
    New Mexico
    This is an interesting thread.

    SOMO pretty much took the words out of my mouth. The current death penalty does not act as a deterrent as it is usually not used like it should be! More people on death row die of something besides the death penalty, this is wrong not to mention the cost it incurs.

    There should be more judges to hear the appeals that come from these cases, so that the death penalty could happen within a time limit, of somewhere along the lines of 5 years or so. That would give those that are innocent the opportunity to use the system like it needs to be used.

    The current death penalty differs from state to state as it is now, this is another reason it doesn’t act as much of a deterrent. In my opinion it should be a consistent thing for the states, and then it might return to becoming a deterrent thing again. Maybe not the way it is employed, but make the employment of it mandatory.

    As far as the religious aspect goes, it is of my opinion that it does not go against the Ten Commandments. As it says in my version, Thou shall not murder. I don’t think there is anything wrong with killing somebody that has murdered. I mean really, if you took the Thou shall not kill literally, what would you eat? No plants, no meat, I think you would die of starvation.
  14. Indian Creek 1

    Indian Creek 1 Member

    Dec 25, 2004
    south Mississippi
    I can't see how anyone cannot see it as a deterrent, it guarantees that individual will not be a repeat offender and that's good enough for me.:D
  15. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

    Dec 26, 2003
    Depends on Uncle Sam's whim every 3 yrs.
    Last time I got back from Iraq, close to 3 years now,I had to turn around and leave several months again. Already had marriage problems and by the time I got home my wife was living with some looser. She laid out for me how I'd been gone 3 years and she was lonely, couldn't do it again, and we agreed to be civil.

    We agreed I would meet him. While she was at work and kids at school, I drove to his house. It was a rundown area. The yard was junked.

    I sat in the car several long minutes. I was looking at a bedroom window in an unpainted wall that could very well be on the other side of a bed this guy is having my wife of nearly 8 years. Or it could be a bedroom where she's making my kids sleep instead of at home in their upstairs lofts.

    In my head I'm thinking...a beautiful wife like her, the things she likes to do, and in there with him at night now. Does she do the same things? Does she dance in lingerie to music videos after the kids are in bed? Does she, does she, does she?

    In my head I'm thinking...there's $20,000 missing in our accounts. The only thing she didn't touch was the investments with only my name. I've had to refinance everything because she didn't pay a dime on a bill in over 3 months. I'd checked on this guy. He was in money trouble...recently he got out the hole. Nothing I could do though, my lawyer said. 50/50 by law. But I suffered for the money I'd saved for us. I'd done unthinkable stuff to earn my pay. How is it right he gets so much of what's mine and I never had any say so?

    In my head I'm also thinking...the Glock 17 (still have it, with same full mag set aside and a new mag in it now) loaded with JHPs my friend dropped off for me when I was in that motel last week because I couldn't stay in my own in the console. I reached in and squeezed the grip. Press check on slide. One in the chamber. I was careful not to let my shirt snag the trigger when I put that piece in my waistband.

    Boy I wanted to smoke that dude. I went in and sat on his couch. My kids toys were in the floor. He asked if I wanted a beer. I went to the fridge and got one. I walked slow back in the room. When I passed behind his chair he was stiff as a board, not blinking. He didn't relax until I sat and started drinking.

    He was kinda big. Long hair. Hazel eyes. Jeans and boots. I pictured him full of holes in that chair of his. Me going outside to sit on the curb and dialing 911. Waiting on the cops.

    Would it be a crime of passion? Would they cut me slack for serving my country? The 22 year old babysitter had stayed the last 2 or 3 nights with me and wives in the neighborhood wasted no time telling everyone including my estranged wife. So much for passion. I'd be the bad guy. Nope...this was Texas and I decided not to rot for her and this guy. Recently being around plenty death, also having a few occasions where people where I'd just been were suddenly dead or jacked up badly, I had this very very strong taste for life.

    We laid out some simple ground rules and shook hands. When I was in the door he was pretty relieved and told me he was afraid at first I might of "shot him or something", I was suprised he told me that and thought a few seconds and told him "no man you're really not worth a whole bullet yet".

    What I was really thinking was you are not worth the Texas State express to fatal injection or something to that effect. I left and picked up my kids...I put that Glock in the console and we rode go-carts until I took them home.

    I called a good friend of mine that night. He'd been through a similar divorce after Afghanistan. He'd always given me good advice. He told me I made a good choice and would never suffer for it.

    Less than a year later that dude with long hair and hazel eyes got her in bad trouble. A few court hearings later I had full custody of my kids. She stayed with the guy who lost her kids for her...for why I'll never know. Within a year after that he went out of business totally and she didn't wait long asking me for a plane ticket...said she'd settle for a bus ticket and wanted to know if we still had options. I told her I wasn't changing my life for her again and she was not allowed to be around her kids unsupervised anyway. I wanted to say I wasn't giving up an awesome girlfriend that lived with me either, but bit my tongue.

    Texas death penalty was enough for me. There are so many things I'd of never gotten to do, so many great people I'd of never known...had I ended up waiting for the cops that day.
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2007
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