I have been using Hoppes NO.9 since I was old enough to clean guns. While it does work, I was just wondering if there is anything that works better. I have been using frog lube for a little while now and it is working very good as a CLP, but that is hardly a copper solvent. I got my hands on a few of my paps guns, and I don't think he cleaned them since new. I got 1 of them clean to where I get no blue on the patches, but it took forever. There are so many out there, I am not really into spending money on something that isn't going to be any better than what I have now. I had thought about giving Butch's bore shine a try.