CRFFL and USPS - redux

Discussion in 'Curio & Relics Forum' started by cointoss2, Mar 4, 2003.

  1. cointoss2

    cointoss2 Guest

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2874
    (2/15/02 8:28:04 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del All CRFFL and USPS - redux
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Well, the guy who bought my Astra finally sent a check and a recieving FFL this week.

    While waiting for the check to clear, I decided to ask my PO, for my own benefit, whether I could ship the Astra to a "dealer" FFL.

    They referred me to somebody like the "postmaster's assistant," because the Postmaster was away "for training."

    So on Wednesday, I showed this guy my CRFFL, (he had never seen one before, obviously) and the "real" FFL I was shipping to, and he at first said what they said at the window, only firearms "dealer to dealer."

    But then he said, let's look it up...and got out the BIG book of regs. (About the size of "The Book of Armaments...")

    After about 15 minutes of trying to read the index...he found the appropriate section, read it...and said ...."Sorry, but it HAS to be dealer to dealer, UNLESS you are sending it to an FFL to be repaired." (Then he said he never knew THAT either, was always told ONLY dealer to dealer, so he laughed and said HE learned something.)

    So I said thanks, and turned to leave, when he said wait a second...and said there's something on "antiques here..."

    And he read the section which said there are NO restrictions on mailing "antiques, or museum CURIOS..." and said THAT said I could! He asked me if that's what the "Curio" meant on my license, and I said that ONE of several of the criteria of what I can buy and sell if it is determined to be "collectible by a museum curator...." or something like that...


    He then said to leave a copy of both FFLs and he would check and get back to me.

    They didn't call me back, so today I stopped in FULLY expecting a "No..." and the same guy said he had checked (did NOT say with who...) and said it was OK for me to ship it!

    I understood the section about antiques, KNOW they mean pre-98, but there IS that other goofy clause, but even I think that's stretching it....

    Now I won't know if the check clears for sure until Tuesday...(5 full business days, plus Monday is a holiday...) BUT what would YOU do?

    I can save alot of shipping (don't worry, he paid me $25 for shipping, that should cover it (I think?) and I already offered to refund or ship him some ammo with any difference)...BUT...

    Am I OK if somebody later says no? Or the ATF gets involved, am I OK with the "permission?"

    Or should I not look a gift horse in the mouth...????
    We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

    AntiqueDr
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2042
    (2/15/02 8:35:02 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del
    ezSupporter
    Re: CRFFL and USPS - redux
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Ship it.

    ATF doesnt enforce postal service regs, and your transaction is within ATF guidelines. The only people that can give you a hassle would be postal inspectors - and their people specifically let you do it, with full disclosure on your part.


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1853
    (2/15/02 9:14:57 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: CRFFL and USPS - redux
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Don't you love it? Damn regs are written by lawyers in such a way they can be interpreted different ways - depending on how the wind blows, if it is before or after lunch, or if the clerk has been getting any nuggy at home lately.
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 250
    (2/15/02 9:25:22 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: CRFFL and USPS - redux
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Nuggy - what's nuggy?

    Does that qualify me as a federal inspector!?

    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3783
    (2/15/02 9:47:35 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: CRFFL and USPS - redux
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Nuggy is what yoo get first, crotch crickets, come second....

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2876
    (2/15/02 9:57:21 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: CRFFL and USPS - redux
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    That's what they used to call Lackawanna, NY when I lived there, "Lackanookie"

    Thanks Doc, I was thinking along those lines....


    ...and for a tangent, I was thinking, I was talking to a guy who bought something from me, and lives in California..and it brought it to mind...

    WHO is breaking the law if something that is illegal by local or state law, gets shipped to that state? The shipper or the buyer?

    Like for instance, AD, if you, say, got an order from California for an extended mag, or something legal in every state but there and a few others...and either didn't know the law there, or didn't notice the address, or simply forgot, whatever..and shipped it...

    Can YOU be prosecuted? I can't see HOW they could, but you never know, unless it is a FEDERAL law to violate a STATE firearms law...but I doubt it...

    I remember when I was in college, when I was a floorwalker, the company allowed us Mace, handcuffs, and a sap or blackjack...(The OLD days of catching shoplifters, LOL)

    It was a class B misdemeanor for anyone not an LEO to own or posess a blackjack, or sap in New York, but a couple of cop friends told me go ahead, nobody would hassle me, so immature me DID, ordered a flat sap out of a magazine, fully aware they had a disclaimer "not where prohibited..." and they SHIPPED it right to my college mailbox! (I carried it for about three years until I lost the darn thing chasing somebody over the river and through the woods...)

    Did THEY break the law too shipping it to me?
    We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

    AntiqueDr
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2043
    (2/15/02 10:03:43 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del
    ezSupporter
    Re: CRFFL and USPS - redux
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Well, I make every effort to comply with the different state's laws but there is just too damn many of them. Not a day goes by that I dont get an email asking if this-and-such was made before whatever date, or if this-and-such is legal to own in wherever... gets real old.

    Here's a good illustration. I sold a used Taurus Raging Bull .44 Mag to a guy in CA. The DOJ website is very vague on that gun, but it clearly says that a Taurus .44 Mag is OK (it just doesnt say which one). I collected the money, and I shipped it. So far so good.

    I followed all ATF guidelines, and all State of Texas guidelines. California can take a flying piss at a rolling doughnut.
    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2880
    (2/15/02 10:58:27 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: CRFFL and USPS - redux
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Don't you go pissing on no donuts, or BG will come LOOKING for youl, and HE knows where you LIVE...LOL

    Thanks Andrew...I wondered how you did it, Geez, this keeps up, you'll have to hire a "Manager of Regulatory Compliance" like the big companies do....









    ....and when you do, can I apply for it?
    We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

    gun runner john
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 460
    (2/16/02 10:37:20 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: CRFFL and USPS - redux
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    FWIW, many of the C&R handguns I receive come by way of USPS, I'd say a majority of them. Obviously, many of the post offices are making the same interpretation of the regulations.

    Flhunter
    V.I.P. Forum Host
    Posts: 1170
    (2/16/02 7:11:09 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del
    ezSupporter
    Re: CRFFL and USPS - redux
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Same here GRJ, and as a matter of fact, just today my wife received one of them long boxes from the mail man. He looked at her and asked if it was another rifle? I wondered at first how he knew, but then remembered he also brings all them firearm magazines.

    Polish, I believe it is the buyers responsibility to know the laws in which they reside and not the sellers. The same holds true as to which firearms an 03 can purchase. It's not the 01 FFl's job to know.



    The Curio and Relic Firearms Forum

    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 2460
    (2/16/02 7:22:51 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: CRFFL and USPS - redux
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A friend of mine ordered a black powder rifle it was shipped UPS to his house. He was not home so the UPS guy took it to the school and gave it to his daughter. He did not want to leave it outside the house as it was clearly marked in black letters BLACK POWDER FIREARM.

    Kind of funny 5th grade girl got to sit in class with a new rifle.
    I do love this state and its people!
    We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans... -- Bill Clinton, US President (USA Today, 11 Mar 1993, page 2a)

    procrastinator
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 160
    (2/16/02 7:35:28 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: CRFFL and USPS - redux
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    How many new boyfriends did she pick up with that rifle as bait?
    The Curio and Relic Firearms Forum

    gun runner john
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 462
    (2/17/02 12:04:36 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: CRFFL and USPS - redux
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Rifles are clearly legal to ship via USPS, it's only pistols that are in question. The real question is the legality of C&R holders shipping handguns via USPS, and we haven't answered that question yet.


    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2884
    (2/17/02 6:08:58 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: CRFFL and USPS - redux
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Yep, I met a lot of really level headed, honest to goodness AMERICANS when I visited S. Dakota, Warpig included.

    And then of course there's Tom Daschle....

    How in THE hell do people like that elect wienies like him????


    Anyway, as cool and laid back as Indiana is, I'm trying to figure out who would've been prosecuted for the "Gun in School" violation...the UPS driver, or the 5th Grader....

    I remember in High School in New York in 1976 when I was a senior, we had to do "demonstration" speeches in English, I did fly-tying, but another kid did his on putting a CVA rifle together from a kit, and brought the finished rifle to school to pass around during his speech, and outside of the "Davy" or "Dan'l" cracks as he walked down the hall between classes with it over his shoulder, everybody including the teachers REALLY thought nothing of it....or thought it was funny.





    My how times have changed....
    We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

    velvetnsteel
    Member
    Posts: 39
    (2/18/02 5:41:08 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: CRFFL and USPS - redux
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I have shipped several C & R handguns via USPS without any hassle at all. As long as it is going to a license holder my postmaster says OK. You have to certify you are a license holder - and that the receipient is a dealer or manufacturer.

    But don't try to figure it out by reading the regulations, like several of you have said before. I have had dealers ship modern handguns back to manufacturers for work via USPS.




    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2902
    (2/18/02 9:12:01 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: CRFFL and USPS - redux
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    NOW that is legal and specifically allowed in te USPS rules, in fact, if anybody wanted to ship ANY handgun to a gunsmith or manufacturer "for repair," they could do it with no problem, it's right there in the rules...and they could ship it back to them too...

    It's just the line that says handguns may only be shipped "dealer to dealer" in USPS that causes all the problems, since by definition, CRFFLs are NOT "dealers."

    Hey, maybe we crufflers should all just lie and claim it IS being sent for repair. How would they know?????? THAT would solve the problem!!!!

    Maybe because by definition we don't lie....and follow ALL the stinkin' rules...

    If it said "Licensee to Licensee" it SURE would make life easier...
    We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2908
    (2/20/02 9:30:06 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: CRFFL and USPS - redux
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Well, I shipped the Astra yesterday, actually was easier than I thought it would be at the Post Office.

    2 day Priority, insured for $250, signature required, total was $12.20.

    Now the REAL problem cropped up...I gave the guy the option of me refunding the difference I charged him in postage (I HATE when guys and dealers make extra money on shipping, so I try not to, well at least any over a dollar or so... ) or I'd ship him a couple of boxes of Largo ammo I had...

    He opted for the Ammo...

    Took it to the UPS counter, I had to ship a rifle anyway, the lady ships the rifle no questions, then flips out and says "You need an ORM-D" sticker on that!"

    I told her I know, don't you have them, she like again flips out and says "No! YOU have to supply them..." I asked her where you get them she said to try an office supply store...(didn't sound right, does it?)

    ANYWAY, I'm looking for a frikkin ORM-D sticker, any ideas?

    And then did you notice UPS has "quietly" reinstated the "fuel surcharge" that they "rescinded" with such fanfare only a month or so ago?


    We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

    RobC in Missouri
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 113
    (2/21/02 8:30:33 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: CRFFL and USPS - redux
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Another bullheaded UPS counterperson....

    I just take a black marker and draw a box and write "ORM-D" inside it, directly on the package. They never say a word to me.....

    RobC in Missouri