does it remain C&R?

Discussion in 'Curio & Relics Forum' started by cointoss2, Mar 4, 2003.

  1. cointoss2

    cointoss2 Guest

    the real fredneck
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    (3/19/02 9:55:13 pm)
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    Would a C&R eligible gun that had been fully sporterized still be considered C&R eligible? reason I'm asking did I let a Kimber get away too cheap?

    www.*************/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=3373770


    Edited by: the real fredneck at: 3/19/02 10:06:23 pm

    WyomingSwede
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    (3/19/02 11:55:37 pm)
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    Yes it does...If it is an pre war action it is still considered a c & R gun due to its original date of manufacture. swede
    Wyoming Swede

    AntiqueDr
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    (3/20/02 8:35:38 am)
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    ezSupporter
    Re: does it remain C&R?
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    That is not quite correct. In order to be C&R eligible, the gun must still be in its original configuration. The Kimber Mausers are not C&R, nor are any other custom rifles built on 98 Mauser actions regardless of the date of manufacture of the action.


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    the real fredneck
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    (3/20/02 8:47:17 am)
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    Thanks for the info guys
    Now what should a Kimber built Swede sell for?

    gun runner john
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    (3/20/02 9:23:17 am)
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    How about the first clause in determining if a gun is C&R, "Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;". I guess you can argue that you "manufactured" the new configuration, but the gun is over 50 years old. Hell, I can modify my old pistol by putting on new grips, does that make it a "modern" gun and no longer a C&R? I have never seen a definitive statement on this point...


    AntiqueDr
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    (3/20/02 2:00:51 pm)
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    ezSupporter
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    I base my opinion on two points: the C&R list does list military bolt action rifles but specifies "Original." Also, when Kimber first put those guns out, a customer of mine sent off to ATF for a C&R determination on one and got rejected.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Kimber serialize the guns and mark them with the Kimber name somewhere? If so, that's definitely "manufacturing" and definitely takes the gun out of C&R status.

    I have a BRNO 98 on the rack right now in full military form. Absolutely C&R and I'd sell it to you on a Class 03 FFL in a heartbeat. HOWEVER, if I ever get a wild hair and rebarrel it, forge the bolt handle, etc., it would definitely NOT be C&R.

    I still am very cautious about that blanket 50-year statement, I think that may end up biting some folks as time goes on.

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    Flhunter
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    (3/20/02 8:55:10 pm)
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    ezSupporter
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    I agree AD, better safe than sorry so I'll stick with your route here.

    I'm having a hard time convincing a local dealer to accept my C&R for any clearly C&R eligible firearms. They insist that a C&R is for "Interstate transfers" only and not local.










    The Curio and Relic Firearms Forum

    polishshooter
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    (3/21/02 12:01:09 am)
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    Yeah, that 50 year letter makes me uneasy too...does that mean AK47s made up to 1952 are CR now? DOn't see many listed as such...

    BUT I DO see guns not specifically listed on the CR list being offered by SOG and others as CR simply because they are '52 or earlier...the TT-33 Tokarevs are a case in point...51 and 52s are...53 on are not...

    The "original condition" clause I read (Yeah I know, it doesn't MATTER how YOU read it, but how THEY read it...) to apply to those guns NOT on the list only due to age, whether it be commemoratives, 1959 Romanian SKSs, 1962 Armalite AR-15s, whatever...
    "Don't hear him call you an @sshole, hear WHY he's calling you an @sshole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    gun runner john
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    (3/21/02 2:55:01 pm)
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    "I still am very cautious about that blanket 50-year statement, I think that may end up biting some folks as time goes on."

    I'd love to know of ONE person that has run afoul of that requirement, i.e. had a gun older than 50 years declared to be a non-C&R gun. Please, anyone, tell me about one documented incident. The regulations say that in no uncertain terms, and I fail to see how they could be interpreted in another way. Why do we put handcuffs on when none are called for?

    To help you decide if this is a real, here's a letter from the BATF on this very topic.

    www.armscenter.com/johnwill/MiscGunRelated/50YearLetterRC1997.jpg


    RobC in Missouri
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    (3/21/02 4:13:35 pm)
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    Any guesses on who wrote ATF and received that letter? <GRIN>

    Yep - yours truly (even though ATF typed the wrong state). Unfortunately, in my letter to them I didn't ask about sporterized milsurp over 50 years old. Someone else said they were going to write them about that, but I haven't heard anything more about it.

    I did include an example of an unlisted gun (a Winchester M1911 shotgun, where the production run ended over 50 years ago) to see if it was C&R, and it is by virtue of age (they don't have to be specifically listed).

    Here's something else for you to ponder: What about a milsurp rifle over 50 years old, that was actually sporterized over 50 years ago as well? Something like a Bannerman rifle or along those lines?

    The rules concerning antiques also cause confusion with sporterized C&R. If an antique firearm is sporterized, it still retains its antique status regardless of what's done to it. I even remember distributors selling antique Mausers, rebarrelled to 7.62x39 and restocked, with no FFL required. Following this rule of thumb, one would also think it would apply to C&R firearms.

    Personally, I'm not a big fan of sporterized milsurp (I have two - my first Swedish Mauser that I foolishly converted into my deer rifle - chopped and restocked, D&T; and a chopped, restocked and D&T Schmidt-Rubin that was calling my name for some time), so I'm not too concerned about it anymore.

    Here's a semi-related rhetorical question: Since firearms dated 1898 and early are considered antiques and no FFL is required, does the same thing apply to the small number of full-auto firearms manufactured prior to that date?

    RobC in Missouri

    AntiqueDr
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    (3/21/02 4:29:29 pm)
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    ezSupporter
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    The acid test for C&R is whether or not the firearm has an intrinsic collectable value or appeal, hence the term "Curio and Relic" or "Collector's License."

    I realize that one portion of the regulations state 50 years or more, and a great many dealers and 03 holders count on that portion for many transactions. And I agree with the 50-yr rule in most cases. However, as time goes by and especially here in the near future we are going to see more and more pieces fall into that category that I am willing to bet were NOT intended to be C&R when the rule was drafted. So we'll see what happens. If you think problems CAN'T happen, well, we need to get together on some real estate deals.

    As to the rhetorical on full-autos, remember that the NFA preceded the GCA by about 30 years and is a separate entity. The gun would have to be removed from NFA status, then determined to be an antique under GCA (like all those short-barrelled rifles found in Section III-A of 'The List.').
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    polishshooter
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    (3/21/02 7:30:03 pm)
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    Yeah, there are quite a few NFA firearms that have been removed from the NFA list and are considered antiques, needing no FFL to buy...for example, the one that caught my eye on the newest list I got last year is any French model 1897 75mm howitzer manufactured in 1897 or 1898 is now an antique and exempt from NFA...

    ...even though that same howitzer was made until and during WWII, the US adopted it in WWI and it was the main field artillery piece until the 105 (Which BTW is CR also, but subject to NFA, just like the later M1897s are) was adopted in 41, and was the weapon of our first effective TD in WWII, and was the gun the Sherman's 75 was patterned after...and I think ammo is still available...

    I want one on my front lawn for the Fourth of July...

    I think pre-98 Potato Diggers are on the list too, as well as some Maxims....

    But then again, even if they DO make AK47s and M16s CR eventually, the CRFFL doesn't REALLY do anything for us, except allow us to recieve them in interstate commerce, we would STILL need to pay the NFA transfer tax, like you have to do if you want a Ma Deuce or something now....


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    LIKTOSHOOT
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    (3/21/02 8:02:58 pm)
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    This is of interest to me, now. I have a friend that purchased some rifles from "The Sportsman Guide" Mausers and they were delivered to the buyer.....7.62x39. What say yee?????? LTS
    T.F.F.

    Edited by: LIKTOSHOOT at: 3/22/02 2:23:06 pm

    the real fredneck
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    (3/21/02 8:44:09 pm)
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    LTS
    thought the Sportsman's Guide only sold dummy guns or BP no FFL required

    WyomingSwede
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    (3/21/02 9:47:42 pm)
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    Sportsmans guide can sell the model 93 & 95 Mausers (from Chile mostly), and they can sell 91 Moisin Nagants without FFLs ti any anyone with the cash. A couple years ago they were having them drilled and tapped with a bushnell 4 power mounted. Then they threw them in a ramline stock and sold them for $395. Hmmm....my guess is $280 pure profit each rifle...capitalism is a wonderful system.

    I have had a lot of dealers tell me as long as its over fifty years old they are C & R. Guess what...I let them.
    swede
    Wyoming Swede

    glockcoyote
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    (3/22/02 9:57:36 am)
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    I am a newbie to C&R but I have done my research...so here are my comments.


    Quote:
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    To help you decide if this is a real, here's a letter from the BATF on this very topic.
    www.armscenter.com/johnwill/MiscGunRelated/50YearLetterRC1997.jpg

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    The letter that is linked to says in number 1:

    Quote:
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    Have been manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof; or
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    that last OR is the clincher. It does not say and.

    Ok experts... what is your take on that letter?

    Should we all write a letter to the ATF and ask the same question and keep it on file incase someone comes to our door asking about the 50 year thing?

    Thanks
    GC
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    gun runner john
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    (3/22/02 9:58:18 am)
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    Since I don't collect modified specimens, I don't much worry about that part of this question. However, opinion letters, such as the one here, and the regulations are pretty clear. Can the BATF give you grief over a sporterized gun that's over 50 years old? SURE! They can give you grief over most anything if they get it into their mind. The fact remains, I know of nobody that has had any problem with the C&R status of a gun that was really manufactured over 50 years ago, and I haven't heard any story to the contrary here.


    AntiqueDr
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    (3/22/02 5:35:12 pm)
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    ezSupporter
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    And I agree. The question posed is whether or not the sporterizing constitutes remanufacturing.

    The answer is that it very well may. Certainly, changing the caliber does. Reserializing, or marking a new maker's name (like Kimber) certainly does. I prefer to err on the side of caution.

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    polishshooter
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    (3/22/02 7:40:24 pm)
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    Gibbs Enfields aren't CR either, I'm pretty sure...
    "Don't hear him call you an @sshole, hear WHY he's calling you an @sshole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    TallTLynn
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    (3/22/02 8:00:46 pm)
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    ezSupporter
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    So now for me the question remains. If I have an Enfield that's been cut down and the stock has also been cut down (mind you it's an original stock). Is it no longer C&R? Everything else is the same except it no longer has a front or rear sight because it's been set up for a scope.

    gun runner john
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    (3/23/02 9:18:45 am)
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    "Gibbs Enfields aren't CR either, I'm pretty sure..."

    Just curious, what makes you think that? Do you have some actual source for this determination, or is just "a feeling"?

    AntiqueDr
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    (3/23/02 1:11:27 pm)
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    ezSupporter
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    On Gibbs's FAQ page, they address that. They state that once the rifle's original configuration is changed, it loses its C&R status therefore the rifles they sell require a Class 01 FFL.

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    no10X4me
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    (4/3/02 4:26:12 pm)
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    There is no problem if you always keep it in your collection and never sell it. Only if it where sold and it where used in a crime and the trace by BATF identified as a non C&R. I figure that I am doing my part by keeping the streets free of C&R and my wife believes it. Yeah.

    no10X4me
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    (4/3/02 4:41:32 pm)
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    I think the original intent was to prevent a business of taking these
    C&R and making sporting rifles without having a class 01. If removing the grenade launcher from a Yugo 59/66 is required to make it legal to pass some local idiot legisator's idea of preventing grenade attacks it does make it less collectible to the resident of that stupid state. It makes it less desirsble and ruins some of the collectible value. If the ATF requires that some of these other firearms be demilled then its just part of the game we have to play. If there was a curio and relic that didn't meet the minimum barrel length and it had to be pernamently modified I think BATF would allow that.

    Tac401
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    (4/3/02 6:57:25 pm)
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