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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just recieved my Lyman Reloading "Handook 49th Edition" today and now i have that, aswell as "Modern Reloading 2nd Ed. (Lee)." Upon opening the book i was in belief that some of my questions will be answered. I was wrong, it brought on more questions. Go figure huh. So i bring my question to the trusty knowledgable forum.

In my lee book it states (specifically for the 223 Remington (AR-15))
XX Grain Jacketed bullet & XX Lead Bullet
In my Lyman it states XX Grain Jacketed SPT, XX grain Jacketed Blitz, XX Grain Jacketed HPBT etc...

Since Lee was my first book i assumed my Nosler Ballistic Tip Varmint Pak 50gr Spitzer was a 50gr jacketed bullet....
Well what is it in my Lyman? Only 50gr listed are Jacketed Blitz...

Thanks in advance, hope i explained my problem so yall may be able to understand my question.
 

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The "Blitz" type bullets are super-thin jacketed bullets designed specifically for fast expansion or even fragmentation when they hit thin-skin varmints like coyotes or prairie dogs even in slower cartridges.
Examples of these would be the Sierra BlitzKing, Hornady SX series, etc.
Basically, they will give you .22-250-like terminal performance at .222 or .223 velocities.
The only caveat to loading these thin-jacketed bullets is you don't want to push them past a specific velocity threshold otherwise they will begin to disintegrate in flight before reaching the target. Usually, the threshold velocity is right around 3500fps but it will vary. That's an instance where the bullet manufacturer's manual is helpful.
But in your case of loading for the .223Rem, you're not going to be exceeding that velocity threshold anyway.

Your Nosler Ballistic Tip Varmints are pretty much just standard jacketed bullets (except with the poly tip). They're not a super-thin jacket design like a BlitzKing or SX.


You can use any 50gr jacketed bullet data that you have in either of your manuals.

I don't have a Nosler manual handy, but the Nosler website shows an overall length of 2.260" along with some recommended powder charges.
http://www.nosler.com/Reloading-Data/223-Remington--5.56x45-NATO-50-Grains.aspx
 

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Lee believes that jacketed bullets and lead bullets can use the same loads. That there is no difference.

That's ONE of the reasons why I don't trust the Lee book.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
The "Blitz" type bullets are super-thin jacketed bullets designed specifically for fast expansion or even fragmentation when they hit thin-skin varmints like coyotes or prairie dogs even in slower cartridges.
Examples of these would be the Sierra BlitzKing, Hornady SX series, etc.
Basically, they will give you .22-250-like terminal performance at .222 or .223 velocities.
The only caveat to loading these thin-jacketed bullets is you don't want to push them past a specific velocity threshold otherwise they will begin to disintegrate in flight before reaching the target. Usually, the threshold velocity is right around 3500fps but it will vary. That's an instance where the bullet manufacturer's manual is helpful.
But in your case of loading for the .223Rem, you're not going to be exceeding that velocity threshold anyway.

Your Nosler Ballistic Tip Varmints are pretty much just standard jacketed bullets (except with the poly tip). They're not a super-thin jacket design like a BlitzKing or SX.


You can use any 50gr jacketed bullet data that you have in either of your manuals.

I don't have a Nosler manual handy, but the Nosler website shows an overall length of 2.260" along with some recommended powder charges.
http://www.nosler.com/Reloading-Data/223-Remington--5.56x45-NATO-50-Grains.aspx
thanks for the reassurance.

I have looked at the nosler manual and noticed the powder i have was not on the list as it is in my Lee book. As for my new Lyman the only 50gr listed are Jacketed Blitz.

Just for info (what i have/using): 50 grain Jacketed Bullet (50gr Nosler BT) MinOAL: 2.250
Reloader15 27.7c/28.0cMAX
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Lee believes that jacketed bullets and lead bullets can use the same loads. That there is no difference.

That's ONE of the reasons why I don't trust the Lee book.
My Lee book has both lead bullets and jacketed bullets pertaining to .223, not much of a selection but it does.
 

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Like Alpo, I have an inherent distrust of the data in the Lee manual as well. Lee hasn't worked up any of the data they have in their manual...they compile it from multiple sources. No way would I push a lead bullet (even gas-checked) to the same velocities that I would push a jacketed bullet out of a rifle cartridge like the .223.
But...enough Lee ranting from me. :)

I don't have any manuals that show RL-15 as a choice for 50gr.
RL-15 is on the slower end of the correct burn rate range for the .223, but Hornady, Sierra, and Speer didn't choose to print any data with that powder for a 50gr in the .223. There are some loads using that powder with heavier bullets, but no 50gr that I can find.
 
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I too wouldn't use the Lee manual for all the reasons stated above.

RL-15 is not a good choice for a 50gr bullet. Varget and VV N133 are as is RL-10x and my favorite H4895. I load 26.5gr of H4895 and the accuracy is outstanding. I use 25gr of H4895 behind a 60gr V-max in my AR and again outstanding accuracy.

My two go to manuals are Hornady and Sierra. I supplument with Hodgdon's on line data and various other sources. Like here and www.6mmbr.com and www.accurateshooter.com
 

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Lee does not test loads and publish their own data. They borrow it from other sources, mostly the free data available from powder manufacturers.

Alliant, the makers of R-15 published one(1) load with 50gr bullet(Nosler BT) and R-15 in their 2012 Reloaders Guide. A Max charge of 28gr with a velocity of 3356fps. My guess is your Lee Manual is an exact match for this load as I'm sure that is where they borrowed it from.

It is also the only load I can find with R-15 and a 50gr Jacketed bullet. Lack of data is a pretty good indication that your choice of powder/bullet combo may not be a good one. As stated above, R-15 is better suited for heavier bullets in the 223/5.56.

Don't forget to use the free online data available from ALL the powder manufacturers.

Don't get to hung up on specific bullet brand and manufacturer. It is perfectly safe and acceptable to use data of same weight and similar construction of different manufacturer. Example would be Sierra data for a Nosler bullet, just do as you always do and Start Low and Work Up.

Forget the OAL listed in the manuals, it is only there to show the handloader what OAL was tested, it is not a recommendation or an absolute. Some manuals don't even publish the tested OAL it is that unimportant.
If you are loading for an AR then OAL is simple, 2.260 is max that will fit into the mag, so that will always be max unless you want to load single shot.
A general Rule-of-Thumb is that you should have at least one bullet diameter seated into the case neck. In the 223, that would be .224 inches of bullets seated into the neck.
That's it, seat deep enough to hold the bullet and short enough to fit the mag.

Remember, the shorter the OAL the LESS the pressure and the longer the OAL the Higher the pressure. No, I do not have that backwards.

If you want lots of NEW data check out Accurate and Ramshot. They even list 5.56 pressure tested data.
http://www.ramshot.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/ramshot_handgun_rifle.pdf


http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/accurate_load_data_3.5.pdf
 

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Always willing to learn.

Explain, in simple terms, how decreasing the amount of room for the gas (shortening the OAL- in other words, seating the bullet deeper) will LESSEN the gas pressure?

If you take one cubic foot of gas and put it in a container that has one cubic foot of volume, the gas pressure will be THIS MUCH. If you put the same amount of gas in a container with 0.5 cubic foot of volume, logic just says that, with the same amount of gas in less room, the pressure will be higher.
 

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This is from John Barnsness of Handloader and Rifle Magazines.

It decreases peak pressure, for two reasons. The longer "jump" of the bullet to the rifling results in a lower peak pressure, since the bullet engraves more easily the faster it's going when it hits the rifling.

Also involved is the "progressive" burning of almost all modern rifle powders. This means the pressure increases relatively slowly from the time of ignition. Thus peak pressure occurs when the bullet beyond the barrel throat, with very slow-burning powders as much as 3-4 inches.

Handgun powders are much faster-burning, and even regressive, meaning pressure peaks when they're first ignited. Thus seating them deeper allows more time for initial pressure to build.

This effect is slightly exaggerated in revolvers. The initial, quick pressure rise is relieved somewhat when the bullet passes the cylinder gap, allowing some gas to escape. When bullets are seated deeper it takes them longer to pass the cylinder gap, giving pressure more time to rise.
_________________________
John




Here some graphs to help illustrate.





 

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So you're saying that, with rifles, a deeper seating gives less pressure, but with pistols it's more?

Also, I see by the first graph that it only works so far. That after (in that example) an additional seating of a quarter inch (and I'll admit, that's awful deep) the pressures are going back up.
 
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It is a fine line. The major difference is in the powder. Pistol powders are made to work in really short barrels thus they are very fast burning. Rifle powders are slower burning.

If the initial air space in a pistol is too little or too much it can result in a KABOOM.

Is it a finer line in pistols than with rifles.

Not to muddy the waters any more.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
k thanks for the info. Ill look into getting new powder/bullet as im shopping for my .357mag too
 

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So you're saying that, with rifles, a deeper seating gives less pressure, but with pistols it's more?

Also, I see by the first graph that it only works so far. That after (in that example) an additional seating of a quarter inch (and I'll admit, that's awful deep) the pressures are going back up.
Yes, for the reasons stated above.

Yes the pressure stated to go back up after being seated .250 off the lands and continued to rise until .450 off the lands at which time they ran probably ran out of bullet. You will also notice that even at .450 off the lands the pressure was less than .100 off and at no time did the deeper seated bullets approach Max pressure.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Just recieved an Alliant Powder Reloaders Guide 2013 in the mail today and out of curiosity i had to look and see if Lee was making stuff up but heres what Alliant has for Nosler 50g BT


50-gr Nosler BT -- Reloder 15 -- WSR(primer) -- Win.(Case) -- 2.200 -- 28g

Velocity at 3356.

28g is a shell filler. Without looking 28g is listed as max charge in the lee book, if memory serves me right.
 

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not meaning to highjack thread: I have the Lyman 49th edition. If lee book can NOT be trusted, what is the next best reloading book in you alls opinions?
 

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not meaning to highjack thread: I have the Lyman 49th edition. If lee book can NOT be trusted, what is the next best reloading book in you alls opinions?
It's not that Lee Book cannot be trusted. The data in the Lee Manual is true pressure tested data copied from the powder manufacturers.

Nothing wrong with that cept, it has a tendency to be Old. It is real easy to check however. Whatever powder in the Lee manual you are interested in, log on to the Manufacturer's data and double check. Odds are with Hodgden, IMR and Win Lee will be spot on or close. On the other hand if you are looking at Ramshot or Accurate Powders, Lee will be way Off as these two update their data often.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
i am sorry if i gave the impression that lee is the wrong book to get. Lee is my first book i got from a veteran, at reloading, and i use it as much as my Lyman when comparing at recipes. Now here is what the back of the Lee book says verbatim.

" Over 26,000 loads in a new format, with velocities for starting loads. this the best kind of load data-it is supplied by the powder companies."

Everyone above this post is right they don't test their own printing just regurgitate.
 
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