First time for everything.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by sharps4590, Aug 7, 2020.

  1. sharps4590

    sharps4590 Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    There's more than a couple mechanics on site and several of us who work on our own vehicles. Well, last week on my MG-B I replaced the brake hose that runs from the tubing on the chassis to the tubing on the rear axel. No problem, easy to get to and work on. The brakes bled out just fine but, the pedal never felt right. Felt as if one of the circuits in the Master cylinder was bleeding by. Except, the emergency brake handle came to the limit of its travel. There wasn't any fluid leaking anywhere. I thought this is a peculiar sequence of events.

    Today I drove it to town and the way the pedal felt bugged the daylights out of me so when I got home I was going to adjust the rear brakes. They're drum, the front are disc. On an MG the brakes are a lot easier to adjust than on Detroit iron. I jacked it up, put it on stands and as it's easier to adjust them with the tire off I removed the left rear. On MG's there's two screws that hold the drum on, they do that during manufacture and I've never known anyone to leave them off when working on rear brakes. Sooo, I removed the screws, backed off the shoes so I could get the drum off. What I found was "the first time for everything". The rear pad ha come off the shoe!!!! It was just floating around in there. Seems a wonder to me the left rear didn't lock up at some point. I guess the way the shoes float kept that from happening. I put the drum and tire back on, backed it in the garage and ordered a set of rear shoes. So I get to replace the shoes next week. I did the wheel cylinders when I was taking chemo so they're good.

    Anyone of you other guys ever see a pad come off the shoe? I think I liked them better when they were riveted on. We had a press that would rivet the pads to the shoes and boy I did a lot of them!!! I expect they're collectors items now....or scrap metal. Kinda like the old manual tire changers with the bead expander.....and a can of ether...:D
     
  2. jbmid1

    jbmid1 Well-Known Member

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    Never seen that. Riveted are still available, probly called "premium" at the parts house.
     

  3. Firpo

    Firpo Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    Wow! That could have ended a lot worse. Thank the Lord it didn’t cause any big troubles.
     
  4. BlackEagle

    BlackEagle TFF Chaplain Supporting Member

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    Agree. Thanking God that you made it home with no trouble and got the problem diagnosed.

    Had a used Fiat 127 in 1980 in Northern Ireland. Unknown to me the front disk pads had worn so thin one of them came out of the calliper and jammed against the disk. We were driving through Newry at the time, also known as bandit country because of IRA activity. We happened to have friends there, managed to get to his place and stayed overnight. Got the new pads from a local car parts store and installed them the next day.

    Newry had a very interesting police station. There were two very high road humps at both ends of the road going past the police station. They were designed to be suspension breakers if you did anything more than 5 MPH. The station itself was surrounded by a fence at least 30 ft high, along with the usual concrete barricades and wall. It kept the IRA from lobbing bombs into the police station.
     
  5. sharps4590

    sharps4590 Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    I don't know if riveted are still available for 46 year old MG's. I'd bet quite a bit they certainly aren't on the shelf at our parts houses, NAPA, O'Reilly or Auto Zone.

    I don't think there was any real possibility of the brake actually locking up. The shoe assembly sort of floats on the back plate. It's just held there with springs and the loose pad looked to be most comfortably ensconced about 1/4 of the way around the other shoe. I worked the pedal a lot trying to decide whether that weird feeling was from the master cylinder, a front caliper or the rear brakes...whether it was mechanical or hydraulic. If the emergency brake handle hadn't...let go and was travelling to its limit I don't know if I would have pulled a drum yet. Doggonedest thing I've seen in a long time.
     
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  6. Grizzley1

    Grizzley1 Well-Known Member

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    I've had pads come off the shoes on three and two wheeled atv's that had drum brakes but not on a car or truck. The darned things had aluminum shoes and glued on pads and we did a lot of riding in the sand dunes on the coast, the salt water didn't react too well on the glue they used to put the pads on them with. Wet sand getting in the drums didn't help matters any either.

    I've riveted more than a few pads on the shoes of log truck trailers when I was in high school and working part time in the mechanics shop of a local logging company. I think that's about all I did was inspect and replace brakes. Those steep gravel logging roads didn't do the brakes on those trucks any favors :)
     
  7. gvw3

    gvw3 Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    It happened to one of my work vans a few years ago. The pedal went almost all the way to the floor. I limped into our service center.
     
  8. CCHolderinMaine

    CCHolderinMaine Garandaholic Supporting Member

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    About 1000 times. Though it's usually a parking brake shoe rather than a service brake shoe.
    Not at all uncommon in the corrosion capitol of the world.
    Easier to adjust than Detroit iron? I can adjust my drum brakes with the wheels on :)

    Actually the other way around, your "organic" low end shoes are more likely to be riveted. Got me thinking....I made that comment off the top of my head. We did an old S10 6 weeksish back. Only shoes in stock were the $15 cheapies...riveted. Just looked up a 90s Astro van...the cheapest..riveted. 2 middle lines bonded, same price as the premium bonded...riveted. Top of the line...bonded. I guess they're all over the place.
     
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  9. 68c15

    68c15 TFFWPP President Supporting Member

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    Pretty common to have a shoe "shed the friction".

    A local guy here rebuilds brake shoes. He prefers to rivet them. Maybe the same service is available near you
     
  10. sharps4590

    sharps4590 Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    Yes, easier to adjust than Detroit iron. On a lift I can adjust a drum brake on an MG in about 30 seconds, with the wheel on. Unfortunately I don't have a lift. Now that I could afford one, I didn't build my shop tall enough. When I built it, it was about all we could afford after building the house...and I did the entire shop by myself except for setting the last three trusses. It's also only 24 X 24.
     
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  11. CCHolderinMaine

    CCHolderinMaine Garandaholic Supporting Member

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    Is it not the same/similar procedure? I pull out the plug, stick the spoon in, click until I like the tension, put plug back, done.
    Or, I back up and firm brake a bunch of times...
     
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  12. sharps4590

    sharps4590 Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    It's the same principle, you're merely spreading the shoes. On MG-B's there's a 1/4 in. square stud that sticks out the back of the plate. Inside the drum the stud spreads the shoes but rather than the threaded expander as on American brakes, it is a cam with detents. You turn the stud sticking out the back of the plate until the wheel locks. Back up one click/detent and the brake is properly adjusted.

    On the T series and the "A" there is a plug in the drum itself, accessed through a hole in the wheel or in the case of wire wheels, through the wires. Pull the plug and it's a large slotted cam you use a big screwdriver to turn. Same procedure, turn it till the wheel locks, back off one click/detent and your done. On the T series and the A it takes longer to get the plug out and back in than it does to adjust the brake.

    It beats the spoon and threaded expander on American brakes all to.....H E double hockey sticks.
     
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  13. CCHolderinMaine

    CCHolderinMaine Garandaholic Supporting Member

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    I hope you know I wasn't really trying to make any comment about the technology. I was just trying to joke around about specifically having to take the wheel off. As in "yours might be a 100% better, but I get to keep the wheel on". I would agree, I'm no particular fan of the usual American type. It's effective and easy enough. The MG type certainly seems more user friendly!
    Whichever way any vehicle's brakes are adjusted really matters not to me.
    I wish folks who turn wrenches in other parts of the country...particularly "rust belt" areas...could come here for a month...a winter month.
    Every job I set out to do. Anything from the simplest maintenance to the most difficult major endeavors starts with what's the condition. It's my overarching concern beyond if I have the people or parts or ability. It's the number 1 factor by a million miles. Every job starts with "if I can take this apart".
    So when I say, pop plug, stick spoon, click screw, plug... I mean... No plug, hole around backing plate 1" diameter now. Screw? Click, yeah you're funny. Wheel off, 2 broken studs, I'll rethread the other 3. Serious deadblow hammer on drum face. ....since 2018 a shot of Thrust....another hammer....another...hey 4 shots <pro. Pull drum, nail heads gone, shoes and all come with. Cylinder plunger on floor, doesn't matter bleed screw was gone 2 years ago. Take screw to vice...torch...if it can't be beaten into submission in 10 minutes, new one. Back together. Done. How long that take?
     
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  14. Grizzly2

    Grizzly2 Well-Known Member

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    I've seen many bonded shoes separated like that over the many years of working on cars. It's not all that uncommon on all sorts of drum brakes. If I had to put a number on it I'd guess somewhere around 5% or less. Hard to put a number on it. I'd do many brake jobs and "occasionally" find one where the linings had come loose. Actually I sort of liked the switch to bonded over riveted. The rivets would really score deeply into drums when you let them get too thin. With the bonded you had to wear the shoe lining completely off until the shoe itself would dig into the drum and score it. I always thought you'd get a little more use out of a set of shoes when they were bonded. Unless of coarse they came loose which really isn't all that common though it does happen sometimes.
     
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  15. tedwitt

    tedwitt 440 Supporting Member

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    That's the only way I adjust them is with the tires on.
    Lock them down, then back them off and listen to them skip, get the skip just right.
     
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