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flussstahl krupp essen shotgun info

Discussion in 'The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Forum' started by jamie87, Aug 22, 2016.

  1. jamie87

    jamie87 New Member

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    Hi

    I've recently been given a flussstahl krupp essen shotgun by my father in-law. He doesn't know anything about it, so I was hoping somebody on here might be able to give me some more information.

    I will attach photos of the markings.

    Some of them are:
    Imman Meffert Suhl
    2,2g Sch.P. NA
    32 gBI.
    N (with crown above it)
    S (with crown above it)
    U (with crown above it)
    13/1
    12 with circle around it

    Any information or a guess at its age would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks


    Jamie
     

    Attached Files:

  2. sharps4590

    sharps4590 Well-Known Member

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    If I could see the proof marks clearly perhaps I could tell you more.

    Immanuel Meffert was one of the more highly regarded makers in Germany. The barrel steel is from the Krupp foundry located in Essen. It is Nitro proofed, the crown over the N denotes that. The crown over the S is the proof stamp for smoothbore barrels and the crown over the U is a view proof, a careful, visual examination of the shotgun. The left barrel is choked, the crown over the W is the proof for choke. The 2,2 is the powder charge and the 32 gBL is the shot charge. The circled 12 is for 12 bore and the chambers are 2 1/2 unless they've been lengthened. I believe the 13/1 has something to do with the actual bore diameter as determined by a "spud". I'm not real clear on that so until confirmed take it with a grain of salt.

    You don't mention nor can I see anything resembling a date code. From my somewhat nebulous understanding a date code wasn't used until after the 1912-1913 proof law. Unless there is one present I can't see or you didn't mention one would be led to believe your gun predates the 1912-13 proof law. Hopefully Marbelkonus will see this and confirm or correct my suspicions.
     
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  3. Marblekonus

    Marblekonus Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely correct!
    Immanuel Meffert, high grade gunmakers in Suhl, founded 1839, expropriated by DDR in 1959.
    2,2g Sch.P. is the powder charge (2,2grams Schultze-Pulver) but that's no nitro powder to proof the gun for N under crown. Therefore N.A. "Nicht Anwendbar" means Not Applicable, that's my opinion.
    The number 12 within circle is the chamber caliber, 13/1 is the barrel caliber, in use since 1892 to 1939.
    You can only use 12 x 65 (12 x 2 1/2) cartritges.
    There are some marks on the barrels I can't identify. If a date code is missing than the gun was manufactured between 1912 and Sept. 1923. The Suhl proofhouse starts 1912 to proof with nitro powder and did not introduce a proof date before Sept. 1923
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
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  4. sharps4590

    sharps4590 Well-Known Member

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    Ahhhh....I thank you Marble!!! I couldn't remember when the date code started in Suhl and couldn't find it in my book. Probably overlooked it.
     
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  5. jamie87

    jamie87 New Member

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    That's brilliant, thanks so much for your help.

    I am planning on having the gun serviced so that I am able to shoot it. Do you think this will be okay? Also if it is not nitro proof, will this cause any issues?

    Lastly would you be able to guess the approximate value of the gun, so that I know whether it is worth having it serviced and trying to bring it back to its former glory.

    I will attach a couple more photos, hopefully this is helpful.

    Thanks
     

    Attached Files:

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  6. sharps4590

    sharps4590 Well-Known Member

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    By all means have it serviced and while the gunsmith is doing the service ask him about shooting it. If it is shootable I suspect the 'smith would recommend light, field loads only. Have him check the chambers while he has it to make certain whether or not it's been re-chambered for 2 3/4 shells. Even if it has been re-chambered I'd be very tempted to still use 2 1/2 shells but that's me. I assume you have the forearm?
     
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  7. jamie87

    jamie87 New Member

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    I do, yes. Just forgot to put it back on for the photo. I believe my father in-law has shot it in the past and he hasn't mentioned anything about which shells to use. I'd imagine he just used 2 3/4. What would be the reason for using 2 1/2 if it's been re chambered for 2 3/4?
     
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  8. Marblekonus

    Marblekonus Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that this gun is re-chambered, no marks 70mm and R under crown. The caliber is 12 x 65mm, that means you can use ammo 12 x 65mm (2 1/2) or12 x 67,5 ( 2 2/3).
    When you use 2 3/4 in a 2 1/2 chamber it's very dangerous. The cartridge is after firing longer than the chamber, the gas pressure will increase.

    It's nitro proofed, the proof mark for nitro, N under crown (in use since 1912), is present. Only in this time the new powder from Koeln-Rottweiler don't have a name, therefore N.A.
    The gun is in a good condition and I think you don't have any problems to fire it with the correct ammo.
    I have a gun like yours but 16 x 65, same age, from Nimrod (Thieme & Schlegelmilch, Suhl), Krupp Flussstahl, all proof marks like yours without proof marks for nitro, exactly same stock without lengthening. My grandfather has bought it and used it with nitro shells, my uncle used it with nitro shells and now I use it for hare, pheasant and other small game with nitro shells. Never we have had problems, Krupp steel at it's best.
     
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  9. sharps4590

    sharps4590 Well-Known Member

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    Marble, if it was re-chambered for 2 3/4 shells stateside, as many have had done to them, it's unlikely it was marked. There is no national requirement for proof or identifying for repair or modification. I believe jamie should have the chambers checked to eliminate all doubt.

    Jamie, there's no reason to shoot 2 1/2 in. shells in a 2 3/4 chamber. That's just me, I prefer the older stuff. I didn't mean to confuse the issue, I apologize if I did. I might even be tempted to shoot black powder and brass cases in it just to see how it would shoot with it......:D
     
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  10. jamie87

    jamie87 New Member

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    I'm in the UK, don't think it's been to the states. Not sure what the rules are here on marking for repair or modification?

    Thanks a lot for your help guys. It's been really interesting.
     
  11. sharps4590

    sharps4590 Well-Known Member

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    My powers of observation are obviously impressive.....lol!! Sorry jamie...didn't see you were in England. I don't know what the requirement is there for repairs or mods. I believe I'd still have the chambers checked if for no other reason than my own edification.