The Firearms Forum banner

1 - 13 of 13 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi all wondering if anyone could help with any info on this beautiful old shotgun. Taken by GG grandfather from a German officer on the Somme.
Proofing marks lead me to believe its a 12g , proofed in black powder , which by the way is amazing to shoot ( yes checked by a gunsmith and black powder loaded cartridges, but the Center rifle barrel is 17 2/28 , does this convert to the 8.15x 46R.
Can anyone help with a supplier of hammers as the right one that fires the middle barrel is not original
 

Attachments

·
TFF Chaplain
Joined
·
20,446 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,507 Posts
Better and more pictures would help a bunch. There's a lot I can't make out on the proofs and I suspect there is some proofs on the water table not shown at all.

SBE is correct, it is a drilling, not a shotgun. A creation and development of the Germanic speaking peoples of central and northern Europe and, arguably, the best all around hunting firearm ever developed. I have 3 and one of them almost always accompanies me when I'm in the woods. I can't make out the proofs on the barrel flats well enough to tell much. If the number inside the circle is a 12 then yes, it is a 12 bore and the 12 being in a circle means it is chambered for 2 1/2 in cases, not the modern 2 3/4. Brass cases work well and are available from Mag-Tech. I believe RST also sells loaded ammo suitable for the old pieces. I THINK I can barely make out a crown over W proof on both barrels. If that is indeed what it is, that means the barrels are choked but, the degree of choke is never given. Without being able to see the proofs any better I can only assume the drilling falls between the 1891 and 1913 German proof laws and, that may be as close as it can be dated. The script "K" probably means one of the many Kelber 'smiths was the barrel maker. IF there is a crown over N on any of the barrels it is Nitro proofed. Otherwise, as you said, BP only.

Looks at least to have been retailed by a some Schultz in Bremen. Krupp obviously made the barrel steel but that's all. Krupp had nothing to do with the making of the piece.

Unless my memory fails me, all the 172/28 denotes is the bore diameter as measured with a spud. The ONLY safe way to determine the rifle cartridge is to make a chamber cast and find a match and slug the bore to determine actual groove diameter. To do otherwise or assume anything with those old pieces is foolhardy and, you may ask me how I know. Those old German makers were notorious for changing some cartridge dimension to their idea. Then, whoever bought their firearm was captive to the seller for a source of ammo. Should it be 8.15 X 46R ammo is still available, brass and components are available and it is easily made from 30 WCF brass. Bullet molds abound. I have two rifles so chambered, one a stalking rifle and the other a Schuetzen rifle. Both cases are similar BUT, not the same dimensions. They are similar enough they're interchangeable but they don't like the same load. The "Normalization" of German cartridges did not begin in earnest until after WWI so while they might be called the same thing, they might also be significantly different.

The only way you're going to get a matching hammer is to have one made. Those pieces were nearly all hand fitted and finished. You must remember that at that time the German sporting gun industry was still largely a cottage industry. For sporting arms there was no huge factory spitting out parts at record pace except in very rare instances. There was Fritz and Hermann and Friedrich working in a little building behind the house of one or the other....and maybe an apprentice or 2 or 3. In England it was the same way and the BEST lock maker EVER worked in his attic for his entire working life. So...there is no supplier. The closest you MIGHT get is, Dixie Gun Works used to sell cast hammer blanks and they might still, I don't know. The hole for the tumbler would have to be cut, the hammer shaped to match your existing one and the engraving added. Personally, I'd be happy it had a replacement hammer that worked.

Looks to be a typical side lever drilling with a dolls head extension adding a little strength to the lock up. It was almost certainly made in the Suhl, Zella-Mehlis area and possibly/probably sourced from there by Herr Schultz. Schultz might or might not have had anything to do with the making of the piece. The engraving looks to me to be a step or two above average and the addition of the gold inlays more than likely points to a bespoke piece...maybe. We'll never know. Where is the selector for the rifle barrel and is the front trigger single set?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,507 Posts
A
Well Mark, Marble said "beaving"...….and I don't have a clue either
 
  • Like
Reactions: shootbrownelk

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Yeah b
Better and more pictures would help a bunch. There's a lot I can't make out on the proofs and I suspect there is some proofs on the water table not shown at all.

SBE is correct, it is a drilling, not a shotgun. A creation and development of the Germanic speaking peoples of central and northern Europe and, arguably, the best all around hunting firearm ever developed. I have 3 and one of them almost always accompanies me when I'm in the woods. I can't make out the proofs on the barrel flats well enough to tell much. If the number inside the circle is a 12 then yes, it is a 12 bore and the 12 being in a circle means it is chambered for 2 1/2 in cases, not the modern 2 3/4. Brass cases work well and are available from Mag-Tech. I believe RST also sells loaded ammo suitable for the old pieces. I THINK I can barely make out a crown over W proof on both barrels. If that is indeed what it is, that means the barrels are choked but, the degree of choke is never given. Without being able to see the proofs any better I can only assume the drilling falls between the 1891 and 1913 German proof laws and, that may be as close as it can be dated. The script "K" probably means one of the many Kelber 'smiths was the barrel maker. IF there is a crown over N on any of the barrels it is Nitro proofed. Otherwise, as you said, BP only.

Looks at least to have been retailed by a some Schultz in Bremen. Krupp obviously made the barrel steel but that's all. Krupp had nothing to do with the making of the piece.

Unless my memory fails me, all the 172/28 denotes is the bore diameter as measured with a spud. The ONLY safe way to determine the rifle cartridge is to make a chamber cast and find a match and slug the bore to determine actual groove diameter. To do otherwise or assume anything with those old pieces is foolhardy and, you may ask me how I know. Those old German makers were notorious for changing some cartridge dimension to their idea. Then, whoever bought their firearm was captive to the seller for a source of ammo. Should it be 8.15 X 46R ammo is still available, brass and components are available and it is easily made from 30 WCF brass. Bullet molds abound. I have two rifles so chambered, one a stalking rifle and the other a Schuetzen rifle. Both cases are similar BUT, not the same dimensions. They are similar enough they're interchangeable but they don't like the same load. The "Normalization" of German cartridges did not begin in earnest until after WWI so while they might be called the same thing, they might also be significantly different.

The only way you're going to get a matching hammer is to have one made. Those pieces were nearly all hand fitted and finished. You must remember that at that time the German sporting gun industry was still largely a cottage industry. For sporting arms there was no huge factory spitting out parts at record pace except in very rare instances. There was Fritz and Hermann and Friedrich working in a little building behind the house of one or the other....and maybe an apprentice or 2 or 3. In England it was the same way and the BEST lock maker EVER worked in his attic for his entire working life. So...there is no supplier. The closest you MIGHT get is, Dixie Gun Works used to sell cast hammer blanks and they might still, I don't know. The hole for the tumbler would have to be cut, the hammer shaped to match your existing one and the engraving added. Personally, I'd be happy it had a replacement hammer that worked.

Looks to be a typical side lever drilling with a dolls head extension adding a little strength to the lock up. It was almost certainly made in the Suhl, Zella-Mehlis area and possibly/probably sourced from there by Herr Schultz. Schultz might or might not have had anything to do with the making of the piece. The engraving looks to me to be a step or two above average and the addition of the gold inlays more than likely points to a bespoke piece...maybe. We'll never know. Where is the selector for the rifle barrel and is the front trigger single set?
ut problems with Right hammer is it doesn’t engage the rifle action , will try to source another hammer and modify to get action working

Better and more pictures would help a bunch. There's a lot I can't make out on the proofs and I suspect there is some proofs on the water table not shown at all.

SBE is correct, it is a drilling, not a shotgun. A creation and development of the Germanic speaking peoples of central and northern Europe and, arguably, the best all around hunting firearm ever developed. I have 3 and one of them almost always accompanies me when I'm in the woods. I can't make out the proofs on the barrel flats well enough to tell much. If the number inside the circle is a 12 then yes, it is a 12 bore and the 12 being in a circle means it is chambered for 2 1/2 in cases, not the modern 2 3/4. Brass cases work well and are available from Mag-Tech. I believe RST also sells loaded ammo suitable for the old pieces. I THINK I can barely make out a crown over W proof on both barrels. If that is indeed what it is, that means the barrels are choked but, the degree of choke is never given. Without being able to see the proofs any better I can only assume the drilling falls between the 1891 and 1913 German proof laws and, that may be as close as it can be dated. The script "K" probably means one of the many Kelber 'smiths was the barrel maker. IF there is a crown over N on any of the barrels it is Nitro proofed. Otherwise, as you said, BP only.

Looks at least to have been retailed by a some Schultz in Bremen. Krupp obviously made the barrel steel but that's all. Krupp had nothing to do with the making of the piece.

Unless my memory fails me, all the 172/28 denotes is the bore diameter as measured with a spud. The ONLY safe way to determine the rifle cartridge is to make a chamber cast and find a match and slug the bore to determine actual groove diameter. To do otherwise or assume anything with those old pieces is foolhardy and, you may ask me how I know. Those old German makers were notorious for changing some cartridge dimension to their idea. Then, whoever bought their firearm was captive to the seller for a source of ammo. Should it be 8.15 X 46R ammo is still available, brass and components are available and it is easily made from 30 WCF brass. Bullet molds abound. I have two rifles so chambered, one a stalking rifle and the other a Schuetzen rifle. Both cases are similar BUT, not the same dimensions. They are similar enough they're interchangeable but they don't like the same load. The "Normalization" of German cartridges did not begin in earnest until after WWI so while they might be called the same thing, they might also be significantly different.

The only way you're going to get a matching hammer is to have one made. Those pieces were nearly all hand fitted and finished. You must remember that at that time the German sporting gun industry was still largely a cottage industry. For sporting arms there was no huge factory spitting out parts at record pace except in very rare instances. There was Fritz and Hermann and Friedrich working in a little building behind the house of one or the other....and maybe an apprentice or 2 or 3. In England it was the same way and the BEST lock maker EVER worked in his attic for his entire working life. So...there is no supplier. The closest you MIGHT get is, Dixie Gun Works used to sell cast hammer blanks and they might still, I don't know. The hole for the tumbler would have to be cut, the hammer shaped to match your existing one and the engraving added. Personally, I'd be happy it had a replacement hammer that worked.

Looks to be a typical side lever drilling with a dolls head extension adding a little strength to the lock up. It was almost certainly made in the Suhl, Zella-Mehlis area and possibly/probably sourced from there by Herr Schultz. Schultz might or might not have had anything to do with the making of the piece. The engraving looks to me to be a step or two above average and the addition of the gold inlays more than likely points to a bespoke piece...maybe. We'll never know. Where is the selector for the rifle barrel and is the front trigger single set?
Yeah front trigger fires the right barrel and slide safety to show Kugel, then action is available
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,507 Posts
Is the front trigger single set? That's what I asked and, on a normal drilling the right trigger always fires the rifle barrel, to my knowledge. What you're calling a "slide safety" is not a safety of any kind, not on a hammer gun. That is simply the barrel selector. All it does is move the "block" in the action into line with a corresponding shoulder on the inside of the right hammer, which is most likely what is missing on your current hammer if it doesn't engage the "block" to fire the rifle barrel. In picture # AC6C34B7 you can see the block behind the hammer. Moving that "block" into firing position was done several ways. One of my drillings has what looks like a typical top lever but, it isn't. The action is a Jones underlever. In this position, to the left, the firing block is moved to beneath the shoulder on the right hammer and is positioned to fire the rifle barrel. If you look carefully between the triggers you can barely see the sear engagement screw. If yours has that screw between the trigger, the front trigger is single set. Most drillings were.

P1010005 (3).JPG


I suspect you're back to having a hammer made as I doubt seriously the hammer from Dixie is going to have that shoulder. I would recommend New England Custom Guns. If they can't make it they should know someone who can....and expect to pay for it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: One Shot

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Thought about that , but the traditionalist in me would , although not correct tits the one from the gun originally, so would rather not modify,
 
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
Top