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·kvfelton
Member
Posts: 1
(2/22/02 2:59:35 am)
Reply | Edit | Del All Home Defense Ammo question
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I just aquired a couple of very good 9mm firearms for consealed carry and have been doing some research on ammunition. The one thing I was confused about was an article I read on recguns.com by Ed Sanow
(www.recguns.com/VG1.html), which was reprinted from the July, 1995 issue of Petersen's 'HANDGUNS' magazine. In this article he blasts the 147 grain bullet, saying::
"Now it is time to impart some crucial information: NEVER use 147 grain ammo in a 9mm pistol! There was a stupid fad for 147 grain hollowpoints a few years ago, and many were suckered into buying these weak, worthless and malfunction-prone rounds. I don't care what you've heard: never use any 9mm hollowpoint heavier than 125 grains. 147 grain hollowpoints often jam in many popular 9mm guns like the Browning Hi-Power, SIG, Beretta 92, S&W and Glock. Ignore the gun magazine hype and stick to what works. If you want to gamble, go to Reno. Don't gamble with your life. 147 grain ammo sucks."
My questions are:
1. Does anyone have an opinion, or experience on this?
2. If these are so bad, why are they still making them?
3. What do you find to be the best personal protection ammo and why.
Thank you.
Xracer
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 1712
(2/22/02 9:41:51 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Home Defense Ammo question
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi KVFelton.....welcome to TFF! Hope you enjoy your stay here.
I'm not a 9mm guy, but I'd say that if you'd like to try those 147's, go ahead and do it! Buy a box or two and run 'em you thru your pistols and see if they cycle properly. If they do.....use 'em.
Generally speaking, the heaver the bullet (in any given caliber), the greater the stopping power.
Alphamale
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 712
(2/22/02 10:17:09 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Home Defense Ammo question
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
speer gold dot 124 gr +p
Pardon me while I burst into flames. I've had enough of the world and its people's mindless games---Incubus
AntiqueDr
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 2122
(2/22/02 10:33:29 am)
Reply | Edit | Del
Re: Home Defense Ammo question
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cor-Bon.
We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
www.apaxenterprises.com
needleace
V.I.P. Member
Posts: 117
(2/22/02 1:52:39 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del
Re: Home Defense Ammo question
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
kvfelton-
Your author is probably reinterating (or regurgitaing) the ballistics reports of the old Winchester 'Black Talons' @
147gr JHP (currently gold in color and marketed as the
SXT at the same 147gr). The cartridge had a lot of hype from the anti-gun media types because the big WIN marketed as severely damaging buddit, because it expanded into a claw type projectile. Well, true ballistics tests found that the heavier bullet at 147gr/9mm had a higher velocity but didn't get the expansion until far after the need. Like shooting a FMJ.
Two options that I like are Cor-bon and Federal. These seem to turn up near the top of every test they're entered for many different guns. Pro-Load is another. To me this means consistency and trust. At 115gr, usually velocity is in the neighborhood of 1050-1150fps, and according to the experts optimal expansion and body damage is acheived.
-ACE
Chief 101
V.I.P. Member
Posts: 89
(3/18/02 11:23:45 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Home Defense Ammo question
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 147gr. 9mm's were intended for suppressed weapons. All 147's are subsonic. Like so many other things in the shooting world, they came and went. If I HAD to carry a 9mm I would stoke it with Bee Safe (pre frag Corbon ammo) or some such hot ammo and carry the 9mm while I was shopping for a .45acp.
Just my .02
Steve
bg
V.I.P. Member
Posts: 51
(3/23/02 8:09:41 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Home Defense Ammo question
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you want to get your point across that the bad guy's in deep doo-doo,try MagSafe Defender in 9mm.I have seen pictures in the newest issue of "Handguns" on MagSafe Defender in 380acp.The damage it did to a block of gelatin was awsome.I would do my best to get out of the way of this stuff and any for that matter,but this MagSafe stuff is bad news for the bad guys!bg
Edited by: bg at: 3/23/02 8:11:38 pm
ldsteff
Member
Posts: 11
(4/27/02 11:20:01 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Home defense ammo
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I use 9mm as concealed carry as well as home defense,the ammo I use and hell I don't even know who makes it, is the 115Grain "P" cup round.It is segmented into 6 pieces got a hell of a wang when you hit flesh with it and one of the nicest thinks about it is that it doesn't ricochet much.Our concealed carry instructor put me on to the stuff.Here in Ky. if you are protectecting yourself and miss your intended target you can get your ass sued off if your bullets ricochet all over the place and hit someone else.With this round if you miss your target and hit something else the bullet will generally come apart into 6 smaller pieces--I believe it is Remington P ammo ain't cheap but neither are lawyers!!
rayra
V.I.P. Member
Posts: 320
(5/6/02 1:33:05 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Home defense ammo
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From a post-shooting-incident legal-defense standpoint - you should ask your local police agency to recommend an ammo type, and as long as their advice is not ridiculous, follow it.
Then when some over-eager prosecutor attempts to try you for manslaughter for shooting a home-invader, they can't use your ammo selection against you.
Me? I'd use a shotgun.
docreg
Member
Posts: 5
(1/10/03 1:28:47 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Home Defense Ammo question
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out Glaser Sarety Slugs
NEtracker
Member
Posts: 2
(1/10/03 2:20:48 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Home Defense Ammo question
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walther P99
Hydra-Shok 124gr
EvilAudio
Member
Posts: 11
(1/11/03 11:54:04 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Home Defense Ammo question
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Everything I've heard says to use 115gr(?) or no more than the 124gr loads. But I'm not one to ask really, since I don't mess with 9mm. But if that's all you have, then you have to make due. Try looking at the performance of Winchester Silvertips. I'm not sure about 9mm, but in every other caliber they perform very well.
"If a tie is like kissing your sister, losing is like kissing your grandmother with her teeth out." George Brett
noital2
Member
Posts: 9
(1/11/03 11:51:06 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del top 9's beat most .45 loads, beat 180 gr .40's, too. that's
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
readily provable on animals. I'd go with the CorBon +P 90 gr jhp, if I couldn't roll my own. Any 9x19 can be rechambered to 356 TSW, for 25% more power. There is no reason to settle for less than the 450 smc in a belt gun, tho. Glasers have been badly watered down since their inventor died, and took the rds public. They used to be LEO-only, and had much higher velocity and energy-numbers.
Once the Mag Safe impacts flesh, and sheds its jacket and epoxy matrix, the 60 gr 9mm bullet turns into nothing but 6 little #2 birdshot pellets. He'd be way ahead to create a 3 segment, Quikshok like bullet, made of aluminum, copper, tin, etc. Such a 55 gr bullet, at 2200 fps from the 3" barrel of a 6", 16 oz Kahr PM9 (rechambered to 356) is a mean thing to have in a pants pocket. That's 600 ft lbs. It sure shows up the 300 ft lbs of the 180 gr .40 short and weak (from such 3" barrels)
EvilAudio
Member
Posts: 12
(1/13/03 1:11:24 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: top 9's beat most .45 loads, beat 180 gr .40's, too. tha
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
180 grain .40's are a joke. I'm not quite sure why they are even made. Perhaps because of the interchangeability with 10mm to simplify the production of both rounds?
"If a tie is like kissing your sister, losing is like kissing your grandmother with her teeth out." George Brett
Beretta9
Member
Posts: 1
(2/2/03 2:46:09 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Home Defense Ammo question
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Have you tried AmmoLab.com? Their tests should give you a good idea of what weights expand the best. It shows the 147 grain Remington HP as giving excellent expansion. However I don't understand the results of the 124 grain Hydrashock. Of the three listed two did not expand at all, but one was excellent?
frostyduck
Member
Posts: 10
(2/3/03 12:24:57 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Home Defense Ammo question
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is or was a web sight with a good collection of information based on ONE SHOT STOPS. Think that this Sanow referred to in KV's original post is one of the authors. I've felt that this is a good place to start investigating ammo selection. Also will give you a pretty good indicator of caliber effectiveness. Am not convinced that off hand suggesting a .45 is the necessary end all. We could one-up that with a rocket launcher, then be 'one-upped' again...that's never ending. Someone with a good quality 9mm weapon, practice and confidence in that gun is much better off than a lesser quality .45, no practice and a flinching problem with the larger caliber. I'll look for that websight, unless one of you know what it is.
1badassmagnum
V.I.P. Member
Posts: 54
(2/15/03 11:55:06 am)
Reply | Edit | Del GOLD DOTS
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
speer gold dots.
I also agree the 147 grainers are really useless.
djohns6
Member
Posts: 8
(2/16/03 9:50:53 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: ammo
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't recommend a particular ammo but I would like to give you a little food for thought . What type of construction is your home ? Do you live in an apartment ? How close are your neighbors . Do you have any other family members in your home ? I think you see where this is going . Missing your intended target in the heat of battle can have disastrous consequences . There is more to consider here than just stopping power .
Member
Posts: 1
(2/22/02 2:59:35 am)
Reply | Edit | Del All Home Defense Ammo question
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just aquired a couple of very good 9mm firearms for consealed carry and have been doing some research on ammunition. The one thing I was confused about was an article I read on recguns.com by Ed Sanow
(www.recguns.com/VG1.html), which was reprinted from the July, 1995 issue of Petersen's 'HANDGUNS' magazine. In this article he blasts the 147 grain bullet, saying::
"Now it is time to impart some crucial information: NEVER use 147 grain ammo in a 9mm pistol! There was a stupid fad for 147 grain hollowpoints a few years ago, and many were suckered into buying these weak, worthless and malfunction-prone rounds. I don't care what you've heard: never use any 9mm hollowpoint heavier than 125 grains. 147 grain hollowpoints often jam in many popular 9mm guns like the Browning Hi-Power, SIG, Beretta 92, S&W and Glock. Ignore the gun magazine hype and stick to what works. If you want to gamble, go to Reno. Don't gamble with your life. 147 grain ammo sucks."
My questions are:
1. Does anyone have an opinion, or experience on this?
2. If these are so bad, why are they still making them?
3. What do you find to be the best personal protection ammo and why.
Thank you.
Xracer
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 1712
(2/22/02 9:41:51 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Home Defense Ammo question
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi KVFelton.....welcome to TFF! Hope you enjoy your stay here.
I'm not a 9mm guy, but I'd say that if you'd like to try those 147's, go ahead and do it! Buy a box or two and run 'em you thru your pistols and see if they cycle properly. If they do.....use 'em.
Generally speaking, the heaver the bullet (in any given caliber), the greater the stopping power.
Alphamale
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 712
(2/22/02 10:17:09 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Home Defense Ammo question
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
speer gold dot 124 gr +p
Pardon me while I burst into flames. I've had enough of the world and its people's mindless games---Incubus
AntiqueDr
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 2122
(2/22/02 10:33:29 am)
Reply | Edit | Del
Re: Home Defense Ammo question
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cor-Bon.
We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
www.apaxenterprises.com
needleace
V.I.P. Member
Posts: 117
(2/22/02 1:52:39 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del
Re: Home Defense Ammo question
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
kvfelton-
Your author is probably reinterating (or regurgitaing) the ballistics reports of the old Winchester 'Black Talons' @
147gr JHP (currently gold in color and marketed as the
SXT at the same 147gr). The cartridge had a lot of hype from the anti-gun media types because the big WIN marketed as severely damaging buddit, because it expanded into a claw type projectile. Well, true ballistics tests found that the heavier bullet at 147gr/9mm had a higher velocity but didn't get the expansion until far after the need. Like shooting a FMJ.
Two options that I like are Cor-bon and Federal. These seem to turn up near the top of every test they're entered for many different guns. Pro-Load is another. To me this means consistency and trust. At 115gr, usually velocity is in the neighborhood of 1050-1150fps, and according to the experts optimal expansion and body damage is acheived.
-ACE
Chief 101
V.I.P. Member
Posts: 89
(3/18/02 11:23:45 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Home Defense Ammo question
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 147gr. 9mm's were intended for suppressed weapons. All 147's are subsonic. Like so many other things in the shooting world, they came and went. If I HAD to carry a 9mm I would stoke it with Bee Safe (pre frag Corbon ammo) or some such hot ammo and carry the 9mm while I was shopping for a .45acp.
Just my .02
Steve
bg
V.I.P. Member
Posts: 51
(3/23/02 8:09:41 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Home Defense Ammo question
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you want to get your point across that the bad guy's in deep doo-doo,try MagSafe Defender in 9mm.I have seen pictures in the newest issue of "Handguns" on MagSafe Defender in 380acp.The damage it did to a block of gelatin was awsome.I would do my best to get out of the way of this stuff and any for that matter,but this MagSafe stuff is bad news for the bad guys!bg
Edited by: bg at: 3/23/02 8:11:38 pm
ldsteff
Member
Posts: 11
(4/27/02 11:20:01 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Home defense ammo
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I use 9mm as concealed carry as well as home defense,the ammo I use and hell I don't even know who makes it, is the 115Grain "P" cup round.It is segmented into 6 pieces got a hell of a wang when you hit flesh with it and one of the nicest thinks about it is that it doesn't ricochet much.Our concealed carry instructor put me on to the stuff.Here in Ky. if you are protectecting yourself and miss your intended target you can get your ass sued off if your bullets ricochet all over the place and hit someone else.With this round if you miss your target and hit something else the bullet will generally come apart into 6 smaller pieces--I believe it is Remington P ammo ain't cheap but neither are lawyers!!
rayra
V.I.P. Member
Posts: 320
(5/6/02 1:33:05 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Home defense ammo
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From a post-shooting-incident legal-defense standpoint - you should ask your local police agency to recommend an ammo type, and as long as their advice is not ridiculous, follow it.
Then when some over-eager prosecutor attempts to try you for manslaughter for shooting a home-invader, they can't use your ammo selection against you.
Me? I'd use a shotgun.
docreg
Member
Posts: 5
(1/10/03 1:28:47 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Home Defense Ammo question
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out Glaser Sarety Slugs
NEtracker
Member
Posts: 2
(1/10/03 2:20:48 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Home Defense Ammo question
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walther P99
Hydra-Shok 124gr
EvilAudio
Member
Posts: 11
(1/11/03 11:54:04 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Home Defense Ammo question
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Everything I've heard says to use 115gr(?) or no more than the 124gr loads. But I'm not one to ask really, since I don't mess with 9mm. But if that's all you have, then you have to make due. Try looking at the performance of Winchester Silvertips. I'm not sure about 9mm, but in every other caliber they perform very well.
"If a tie is like kissing your sister, losing is like kissing your grandmother with her teeth out." George Brett
noital2
Member
Posts: 9
(1/11/03 11:51:06 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del top 9's beat most .45 loads, beat 180 gr .40's, too. that's
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
readily provable on animals. I'd go with the CorBon +P 90 gr jhp, if I couldn't roll my own. Any 9x19 can be rechambered to 356 TSW, for 25% more power. There is no reason to settle for less than the 450 smc in a belt gun, tho. Glasers have been badly watered down since their inventor died, and took the rds public. They used to be LEO-only, and had much higher velocity and energy-numbers.
Once the Mag Safe impacts flesh, and sheds its jacket and epoxy matrix, the 60 gr 9mm bullet turns into nothing but 6 little #2 birdshot pellets. He'd be way ahead to create a 3 segment, Quikshok like bullet, made of aluminum, copper, tin, etc. Such a 55 gr bullet, at 2200 fps from the 3" barrel of a 6", 16 oz Kahr PM9 (rechambered to 356) is a mean thing to have in a pants pocket. That's 600 ft lbs. It sure shows up the 300 ft lbs of the 180 gr .40 short and weak (from such 3" barrels)
EvilAudio
Member
Posts: 12
(1/13/03 1:11:24 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: top 9's beat most .45 loads, beat 180 gr .40's, too. tha
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
180 grain .40's are a joke. I'm not quite sure why they are even made. Perhaps because of the interchangeability with 10mm to simplify the production of both rounds?
"If a tie is like kissing your sister, losing is like kissing your grandmother with her teeth out." George Brett
Beretta9
Member
Posts: 1
(2/2/03 2:46:09 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Home Defense Ammo question
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Have you tried AmmoLab.com? Their tests should give you a good idea of what weights expand the best. It shows the 147 grain Remington HP as giving excellent expansion. However I don't understand the results of the 124 grain Hydrashock. Of the three listed two did not expand at all, but one was excellent?
frostyduck
Member
Posts: 10
(2/3/03 12:24:57 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Home Defense Ammo question
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is or was a web sight with a good collection of information based on ONE SHOT STOPS. Think that this Sanow referred to in KV's original post is one of the authors. I've felt that this is a good place to start investigating ammo selection. Also will give you a pretty good indicator of caliber effectiveness. Am not convinced that off hand suggesting a .45 is the necessary end all. We could one-up that with a rocket launcher, then be 'one-upped' again...that's never ending. Someone with a good quality 9mm weapon, practice and confidence in that gun is much better off than a lesser quality .45, no practice and a flinching problem with the larger caliber. I'll look for that websight, unless one of you know what it is.
1badassmagnum
V.I.P. Member
Posts: 54
(2/15/03 11:55:06 am)
Reply | Edit | Del GOLD DOTS
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
speer gold dots.
I also agree the 147 grainers are really useless.
djohns6
Member
Posts: 8
(2/16/03 9:50:53 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: ammo
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't recommend a particular ammo but I would like to give you a little food for thought . What type of construction is your home ? Do you live in an apartment ? How close are your neighbors . Do you have any other family members in your home ? I think you see where this is going . Missing your intended target in the heat of battle can have disastrous consequences . There is more to consider here than just stopping power .
