[TheDuke]

Do you need to trim brass with Hornady FTX Bullets 458 Caliber (458 Diameter) when using in .45-70 or other single shot rifles/bolt/double ? I have little if no experience with this bullet. But found some 325g and thunking if the brass trim is related only to lever action function or has it something to do with ojive etc etc.. ..I see no reason these should not work in SS rifles without trimming or crimping on the bullet groove. That's what I think, but have been known to be wrong once or twice. Thanks.

 

[rzw0wr]

I shot 140 grain out of my .357 pistol without timing.
I also heard it was about the ogive.

 

[TheDuke]

I put the question to Hornady also, but no idea when I'll hear back.. I ordered a box just now so guess I'll find out..I hate to trim normal brass, but got about 50 nickel plated I can use if I have to..Interesting responses to another question was the trim was only necessary for 1st round chamber from magazine. I don't exactly believe that, but guess I'll find out as I've also an 1895 Marlin..Enjoy learning more about reloading..and keeps me off the streets and out of the bars.😖🤣🤣🤣

 

[gdmoody]

I put the question to Hornady also, but no idea when I'll hear back.. I ordered a box just now so guess I'll find out..I hate to trim normal brass, but got about 50 nickel plated I can use if I have to..Interesting responses to another question was the trim was only necessary for 1st round chamber from magazine. I don't exactly believe that, but guess I'll find out as I've also an 1895 Marlin..Enjoy learning more about reloading..and keeps me off the streets and out of the bars.😖🤣🤣🤣

According to the Hornady #10 manual, when loading a 325 grain FTX bullet in 45/70, the trim length is 2.040. It doesn't specify any certain type of action, it just say to trim.

 

[TheDuke]

2.150 is regular case length for .45-70.. As I understand if you use this bullet for a lever rifle you must trim to the 2.040 for proper feeding..as it is with their Lever Revolution ammo.. COAL in mind, I am wondering if this bullet would would fit regular 2.150 case and be fired in a single shot. Im not worried about crimp grooves, and I 'Think' the overall length will work.. But question in my mind is that the bullet ojive may not be adaptable to the longer case length and either make the case crimp past this or cause the case overall to be too long for S/S.. I ordered a box to try and if I can't make work in the Ruger 3 or others, I'll trim and load for my 1895 Marlin..That thing will rattle your teeth like the #3.😳

 

[gdmoody]

The data I mentioned IS for both a single shot at trapdoor pressures and for the Marlin Lever Action.

 

[PRR1957]

Trimming cartridge case is mostly important if the cartridge case mouth is crimped onto the bullet. Some specific gunpowder used may require a crimp to help with the gunpowder full combustion. If shot in a single shot firearm a crimp is not necessary as the loaded cartridge will not be subjected to recoil.

To reiterate,
A crimp helps some gunpowder burn more efficiently.
A crimp will hold a bullet in its seated position if subjected to heavy recoil.
If the first two listed are not a consideration, then trimming is of a minor importance.

 

[TheDuke]

According to the Hornady #10 manual, when loading a 325 grain FTX bullet in 45/70, the trim length is 2.040. It doesn't specify any certain type of action, it just say to trim.

Yep, I read that also. The FXT is loaded in their brand Lever Revolution ammo.. I suppose something in the bullet having a shorter On ice requires it to be loaded in shortened case for feeding in a magazine lever gun..I just don't know if I will have to do same for single shot.. Maybe cartridge overall too long or ojive problem...I dunno. Guess I'll know when I get my brass and see what's what

Trimming cartridge case is mostly important if the cartridge case mouth is crimped onto the bullet. Some specific gunpowder used may require a crimp to help with the gunpowder full combustion. If shot in a single shot firearm a crimp is not necessary as the loaded cartridge will not be subjected to recoil.

To reiterate,
A crimp helps some gunpowder burn more efficiently.
A crimp will hold a bullet in its seated position if subjected to heavy recoil.
If the first two listed are not a consideration, then trimming is of a minor importance.

Agree. I may be able to taper crimp, but ojive may or may not allow, causing length to seat the bullet on or into the rifling jamming the bullet causing hi pressure. I would not like to have 2 different case lengths to keep track of..just my OCD.😃 I shoot 405 g LRN in my Marlin and works fine. Gotta be ojive on the pointed 325g FXT.. I shoot 500 g LSP in my Quigley.. Why shouldn't the 325g work in S/S in regular size case..? Gotta be a long ogive...maybe.🙄

 

[Old School or Nothing]

I know on the 357 it is based on OAL. If you load in reg length brass to the outer edge of the cannalure the OAL is just a tad over 1.6 and works in most revolvers but not most lever guns. One thing to keep in mind is most those have a deeper seating depth than std bullets and even if you dont trim the brass the case volumn is reduced and pressure increases over std loads with the same weight bullet.

Even w/o trimming on the 357s the case volumn us reduced by 1/8" which is basically the same case volumn as a 38spl. It can be loaded to mag pressures but the charge is less to reach it.

With all that said I could only get a little under 1700fps out of them in a 18.5" 357 carbine. My thoughs on it were - why do I want to use a 140 bullet at 1700 when I can push a 158 bullet with a higher BC to 1900. The ftxs do group well in my guns though so if you dont mind spending that much on target ammo and not worried about energy delivered to game then they are great.

 

[gdmoody]

I just don't know if I will have to do same for single shot.. Maybe cartridge overall too long or ojive problem...I dunno. Guess I'll know when I get my brass and see what's what

As I said earlier, it also shows the same information in the "single shot" Trapdoor loadings, I don't think I have ever seen a trapdoor that held more than one cartridge at a time.

 

[Old School or Nothing]

Yep, I read that also. The FXT is loaded in their brand Lever Revolution ammo.. I suppose something in the bullet having a shorter On ice requires it to be loaded in shortened case for feeding in a magazine lever gun..I just don't know if I will have to do same for single shot.. Maybe cartridge overall too long or ojive problem...I dunno. Guess I'll know when I get my brass and see what's what

Agree. I may be able to taper crimp, but ojive may or may not allow, causing length to seat the bullet on or into the rifling jamming the bullet causing hi pressure. I would not like to have 2 different case lengths to keep track of..just my OCD.😃 I shoot 405 g LRN in my Marlin and works fine. Gotta be ojive on the pointed 325g FXT.. I shoot 500 g LSP in my Quigley.. Why shouldn't the 325g work in S/S in regular size case..? Gotta be a long ogive...maybe.🙄

You can always check the freebore by marking the bullet with a dry erase marker, slip it into a fired case, and then chambering in the rifle. Leave it way long so it gets pushed into the case by the rifling lands. The dry erase should show the depth it went too - move the bullet to that mark after you take it out and measure the OAL or distance to the lands.

Its a little harder to do on single shots because they tend to jerk the case out as compaired to a hand turned bolt but it can be done to find jam. I use this dry marker method on a ruger #1 and it works okay. Just do it multible times so you get a good measurement.

As long as you load .007 or more away from the lands you should be fine and it may shoot better also that way cause the bullet doesnt crash land into the rifling as much - somewhere between 20 and 7 mills usually shows better groups than factory standard OAL ammo.

This would taylor it to one rifles chamber so if you are loading for more than one rifle you may want to seperate the ammo per the intended firearm or use the rifle with the less freebore as the max OAL reference gor all the reloads you produce.

 

[TheDuke]

Yep, I read that also. The FXT is loaded in their brand Lever Revolution ammo.. I suppose something in the bullet having a shorter On ice requires it to be loaded in shortened case for feeding in a magazine lever gun..I just don't know if I will have to do same for single shot.. Maybe cartridge overall too long or ojive problem...I dunno. Guess I'll know when I get my brass and see what's what

Agree. I may be able to taper crimp, but ojive may or may not allow, causing length to seat the bullet on or into the rifling jamming the bullet causing hi pressure. I would not like to have 2 different case lengths to keep track of..just my OCD.😃 I shoot 405 g LRN in my Marlin and works fine. Gotta be ojive on the pointed 325g FXT.. I shoot 500 g LSP in my Quigley.. Why shouldn't the 325g work in S/S in regular size case..? Gotta be a long ogive...maybe.🙄

Oh..If you know of a smokeless powder that burns clean in a .45-70 let me know..Ive not found an ideal one yet regardless of bullet, crimp or primer.😖

I know on the 357 it is based on OAL. If you load in reg length brass to the outer edge of the cannalure the OAL is just a tad over 1.6 and works in most revolvers but not most lever guns. One thing to keep in mind is most those have a deeper seating depth than std bullets and even if you dont trim the brass the case volumn is reduced and pressure increases over std loads with the same weight bullet.

Even w/o trimming on the 357s the case volumn us reduced by 1/8" which is basically the same case volumn as a 38spl. It can be loaded to mag pressures but the charge is less to reach it.

With all that said I could only get a little under 1700fps out of them in a 18.5" 357 carbine. My thoughs on it were - why do I want to use a 140 bullet at 1700 when I can push a 158 bullet with a higher BC to 1900. The ftxs do group well in my guns though so if you dont mind spending that much on target ammo and not worried about energy delivered to game then they are great.

Dang good advise.. I did a stupid dufus thing when Hornady first came out with the new solid copper.. Whatever called them..bullets.. No Horn book then so loaded some .243 start loads with regular data for weight..WRONG..First round down range. Sticky bolt, flat primer et al..Rifle OK.. Good CZ..I Didnot consider the extra length copper bullet in seating..Thank goodness I use a starting load.. Never too experienced to get overconfident and FU..Won't do that again.😳😳
I spent over an hour last night scanning the Inet until crosseyed.. Found only one post with exact same kind questions I posted.. No follow up.. I'm just going to wait till
Ole Larry gets my box on the way so I can do some measuring, Mark a Loting, Compararating and if thing look good, load & fire some pipsqueaks and go from there...Still waiting on reply from Hornady..But least I found the FTX supposed to expand well at low FPS. Thanks. I'll post results when I get them.

 

[Old School or Nothing]

The lyman 50 loading manual has loads listed for most of the ftx bullets. I think all require brass trimming but as long as they are not too long for your action or chamber you can get by without trimming. You still need to use the listed charge weights though because of the seating depth. If you crono, check fps, and dont exceed the loading data fps for the trimmed brass same ftx bullet you should be fine. Since the case volumn is smaller and the pressure will be up the slower burning powders will get you the most speed as long as you can fit it in the case. Of coase if just plinking use any listed powder loaded to what shoots best in your rifle - staying within the desired pressure range. In a 45-70 you will likely get all the shoulder push you want even with reduced loads. With the reduced case volumn it is more like a 45-60 or 45-65. 45-70 is a BP cartridge so has plenty volumn for modern powders just stay w/i desired pressures.

P.S. The nose of the ftx bullets are fairly fragile frount on the cannalure be gentile when seating and some seating stems have to be opened up some for the bullet tips not to be smashed down inside the nose.

 

[TheDuke]

The lyman 50 loading manual has loads listed for most of the ftx bullets. I think all require brass trimming but as long as they are not too long for your action or chamber you can get by without trimming. You still need to use the listed charge weights though because of the seating depth. If you crono, check fps, and dont exceed the loading data fps for the trimmed brass same ftx bullet you should be fine. Since the case volumn is smaller and the pressure will be up the slower burning powders will get you the most speed as long as you can fit it in the case. Of coase if just plinking use any listed powder loaded to what shoots best in your rifle - staying within the desired pressure range. In a 45-70 you will likely get all the shoulder push you want even with reduced loads. With the reduced case volumn it is more like a 45-60 or 45-65. 45-70 is a BP cartridge so has plenty volumn for modern powders just stay w/i desired pressures.

P.S. The nose of the ftx bullets are fairly fragile frount on the cannalure be gentile when seating and some seating stems have to be opened up some for the bullet tips not to be smashed down inside the nose.

Thanks.. The Horn book showed a few loads but I don't have their listed powders.. Can't beat Lyman.. The bullets should be in today.. I may get a few to try by this PM.

 

[TheDuke]

Got the 325 FTX s. Stuck one in a dummy load full length case. This one mics at 2.702.
COAL Max 2.550.. Loaded into #3 fine. No scratches on Mark O Lot I painted bullet with.. Note I seated short of the cannalure. Tomorrow I'll see if I have a comparator set for .45-70 and see.. I understand it's the long ojive that may increase pressure, but I don't see why a standard length longe case with more cartridge volume could raise pressure???? I suppose I'll have a chat with Hornady Tech Monday and maybe he can knock the missing reason into my thick skull. They say it is "critical" to use the specified trimmed length.. Never loaded the FTX and I must be missing something.. I dunno.🙄


Oops forgot the pic.