Ideas on self regulation?

Discussion in 'The Constitutional & RKBA Forum' started by GrumpyOldGuy, Apr 14, 2018.

  1. joe45c

    joe45c Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2011
    Messages:
    8,976
    Location:
    peru,ny
    Wish mine would evolve like that!:(
     
  2. Alaska444

    Alaska444 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,916
    Oh really.

    Well let me give you one more example of self regulating organizations that have stolen freedom.

    As a physician, we are required by state licensing to obtain a certain a ount of continuing medical education. Fair enough, good idea but in practice 25 hrs per year really has very little real life impact on a medical practice.

    In any case, I love learning and I love teaching as you truly learn a subject when you teach it. Around 1992-3, the AMA in conjunction with ACCME and state medical boards required all CME to be accredited by the ACCME. A nongovernment, "self regulatory" organization.

    As I was i. The Army at that time and in charge of the Advanced Cardiac Life Support recertification course for our hospital, the Colonel of the MEDDAC put me in charge of CME. They sent me to Denver to learn how to do accredited CME. The general in charge of the conference by DOD orders was not happy at all about this change.

    He gave a one hour speach about this new accreditation process lambasting the entire thing as only generals can do in sich a situation. He summed it up, I dont need anyone telling me how to run a CME program.

    Before this orgainzation came into power over all US CME, the noon conferences I went to were fantastic every single day. Great speakers, interesting topics and free lunch by drug reps. (Subway sandwiches usually, no gormet foods) it was a medical atudent delight. Were there abuses of this system, perhaps, but I was never offered anything more than a subway sandwich in those pre-self regulatory days.

    Then the ACCME took over and little by little the regulations came down hard and fast. Changes every single year with more and more restrictive regulations on what was and what wasn't allowable as far as content and as far as any drug rep support for speakers or meals.

    I left the military and my new company put me in charge of their CME due to my training in the Army and experience of three years. A couple years before I retired, I turned it over to another doc after about ten years due to my progressive renal disease. After retirement, I began speaking and writing on renal disease issues nd came back home after speaking at a national conference.

    I approached the new CME director offering my services speaking to my old Internal Medicine department on these important issues that are poorly related to primary care providers. He flatly turned me down stating we dont do lectures like that a y longer. The ACCME regulations require that ALL CME activities are needs based only. Since internal medicine does not prescribe dialysis, he COULD NOT allow me to give a lecture on that topic. He could only generate lectures based on the results of need based surveys.

    So in only 15 years or so, the ACCME had completely transformed American CME from completely doctor driven to completely and totally regulated with ludicrous prohibitions. That is what a "self regulating" nongovernmental organization did for CME.

    And you are here on a very conservative firearms website advocating in a very strong manner for the same type of self regulating nongovernmental orgaization.

    I say, with all due respect, balderdash.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018
    carver and Stahlrosen like this.

  3. Alaska444

    Alaska444 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,916
    About Us

    The ACCME's mission is the identification, development, and promotion of standards for quality continuing medical education (CME) utilized by physicians in their maintenance of competence and incorporation of new knowledge to improve quality medical care for patients and their communities.

    The ACCME fulfills its mission through a voluntary self-regulated system for accrediting CME providers and a peer-review process responsive to changes in medical education and the health care delivery system.

    The primary responsibilities of the ACCME are to:

    • Serve as the body accrediting institutions and organizations offering continuing medical education.
    • Serve as the body recognizing institutions and organizations offering continuing medical education accreditation.
    • Develop criteria for evaluation of both educational programs and their activities by which ACCME and state accrediting bodies will accredit institutions and organizations and be responsible for assuring compliance with these standards.
    • Develop, or foster the development of, methods for measuring the effectiveness of continuing medical education and its accreditation, particularly in its relationship to supporting quality patient care and the continuum of medical education.
    • Recommend and initiate studies for improving the organization and processes of continuing medical education and its accreditation.
    • Review and assess developments in continuing medical education’s support of quality health.
    • Review periodically its role in continuing medical education to ensure it remains responsive to public and professional needs.
    http://www.accme.org/about-us
     
    carver likes this.
  4. Alaska444

    Alaska444 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,916
    The JOINT COMMISSION no longer fosters better health care. It has far exceeded its usefulness of setting standards and now is an exercise in absurdity. You must specificially study the individual regulations which are costly to implement and in many ways completely unrelated to health care outcomes and hire dozens of staff to simply prepare for the surveys and then other staff to correct deficiences found in these surveys that have little if any impact on actual pt care.

    As a physician, I had to attend several hours of classes on how to answer surveyors questions in a manner that would not garner a deficiency. It was a great big waste of time and energy playing this dumb survey game with very specific survey answers outside of my day to day clinical practice.

    And you recommend a self regulating organization for firearms owners.

    Not on my watch.

    Good luck promoting that nonsense here.
     
    AaronW, carver and Stahlrosen like this.
  5. Alaska444

    Alaska444 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,916
    TigerLeo, any nongovernmental agency regulating firearms can by law become the governments standards. Read my posts on medical education and hospital accreditation. Guess what, the government, state, county, and federal all require these nongovernmental "self regulatory" agency's accreditations by law.

    It is just a back door plan to complete and total regulatory control by the government. Don't fall for it.
     
    Kweeksdraw, carver and Stahlrosen like this.
  6. CCHolderinMaine

    CCHolderinMaine Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2012
    Messages:
    5,386
    Location:
    Steep Falls, Maine
    The NRA is all about safety. Doesn't matter.
    This isn't about being safe or saving lives.
    The government wants the populace disarmed.
    They know what's in store for us. They know that 1776 should happen again and they're hell bent on making sure it doesn't.
    SCUBA diving is no threat to the fed's control, thus they couldn't care less.
     
  7. Kweeksdraw

    Kweeksdraw Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2016
    Messages:
    1,155
    Location:
    Texas
    Training, no. A Constitutional infringement. The NRA has reduced accidents to near zero. So the problem seems to be shooting/ murdering people on purpose. How would you train someone not to shoot up people at schools, concerts, and other places. Well maybe it could work. Training is something you do to a dog, so maybe something like a bark collar, only it goes off when you shoot someone. Better yet, just issue every citizen one of those little bats.
     
    Alaska444 likes this.
  8. TigerLeo

    TigerLeo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2016
    Messages:
    3,690
    Location:
    SouthEast Missouri
    I'm with you on that, and you've even extended my point very succintly. More gooberment overreach.
     
  9. Alaska444

    Alaska444 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,916
    Looking over my CME issues, it appears the US Senate finance committee shut off completely. by unintended regulatory effect,CME credits for any history of medicine presentations. An entire medical subsiderary, history of medicine experts were out of luck even at the highest quality national meetings.

    "Well-intentioned attempts by the Senate Finance Committee to improve the content and quality of continuing medical education (CME) offerings had the unanticipated consequence of decimating academically oriented history of medicine conferences. New guidelines intended to keep CME courses free of commercial bias from the pharmaceutical industry were worded in a fashion that caused CME officials at academic institutions to be reluctant to offer CME credit for history of medicine gatherings."

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3954679/

    After brainstorming on how to overcome this regulatory hindrence of ACCME regulations promulgated by the US Senate Finance committee, members of medical history societies derived a new set of rules for medical history conferences but when implemented the first time, they were cumbersome, difficult to implement and the net result was marked loss of CME credits for time spent in these lectures.

    "For this meeting, the maximum number of CME hours actually awarded to a participant was 10 hours. That person submitted 23 requests, of which 20 (87%) were approved. The average number of CME hours awarded was 3.98 hours. Had all 370 CME requests been granted, the average would have been 14.23 hours per physician requestor. Fourteen talks did not elicit a request for CME."

    This is the ultimate effect of about 20 years of self regulation of physicians CME. Sit and listen to 14 hours of lectures, spend thousands of dollars for travel, meals, hotels etc and return home with less than 4 hours total CME credit.

    What would these same folks do to a self regulatory firearms industry in 20 years?
     
  10. Diamondback

    Diamondback Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    2,047
    Location:
    Silver City, Oklahoma
    Really? It is mandatory that you have a drivers license to operate a vehicle. A license that the government can revoke for any freaking reason they care to dream up. Mandatory training for ownership of a firearm is sure fire method of revoking your license/permit any time, for any reason.
     
  11. Old Guns

    Old Guns Well-Known Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2017
    Messages:
    1,777
    Who is going to train all the thugs in the cities? They are the ones causing trouble. Most honest or formerly honest gun owners are no problem at all. Accidents can and will happen. The pesky problem with a constitutional right is that you can't just come out and say so and so is too stupid for this right. Stupid is as stupid does and the rest follows. What we need is self regulation of thugs and stupid people. I believe they are doing a fair job at attempting it but the law keeps getting in their way. On the other hand sometimes the law helps them right along.
     
  12. Alaska444

    Alaska444 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,916
    The founding fathers knew what self regulation is all about.

    George Washington said,

    "It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible".

    John Adams said,

    “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

    https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/john_adams_391045
     
    cec2 and Kweeksdraw like this.
  13. gvw3

    gvw3 Well-Known Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2011
    Messages:
    14,947
    Location:
    Chicago IL Area
    In Illinois you need 16 hours of classroom training to get a CC licence. I learned nothing in this training. Then you need to pass a live fire test. I used my Ruger Blackhawk in 44 mag to make it interesting. It was a waste of my time and cost around $500.

    No thanks to more regulation. No thanks to anymore government control.
     
    cec2 likes this.
  14. GrumpyOldGuy

    GrumpyOldGuy Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2018
    Messages:
    38
    In Texas, our training for CCW is ~6 hours which is more reasonable, cost for the training about $65, done by local instructors at our gun club on Sat mornings. To me, that is a reasonable time, I have more issues with getting finger printed and such than sitting through a class.

    There is a big difference between self regulation and law. Self regulation like in the dive industry has multiple agencies. If one gets too crazy, people use the others. You have a choice and that choice gives you power. The moment you switch to legal or governmental regulation, you loose the choice. Then its just a matter of time before they screw it up. So for right now, TX is reasonable, but they could screw it up (again).

    That choice by the way is what makes the 2A great. Its not that you or I are armed, but that we have the option to be armed. My choice, your choice, not the governments.
     
  15. GrumpyOldGuy

    GrumpyOldGuy Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2018
    Messages:
    38
    I will answer with a whole lot fewer words.

    1) I was asking about ideas. Not promoting. This is a discussion forum to the best of my knowledge.

    2) My concept that I used to launch the discussion was multiple agencies, not a single quasi government organization. This is a huge difference, just like capitalism, the key is competing suppliers benefit the consumer.

    3) What's your bright idea? Right now I see a constant stream of gun restrictions being passed at local state and federal level because of extreme emotional responses. As soon as it goes a little quiet, some yahoo discharges an "empty" gun in a classroom or leaves his gun in a toilet stall or some other idiotic move and the media shares with the world. I think we are sticking our fingers in the dyke, I hope we are not but it looks that way to me. I want to do something and not screw ourselves in the the process.