I'm a bit afraid to say this... ( 1 2 )

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ruffitt, Mar 3, 2003.

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  1. ruffitt

    ruffitt *TFF Admin Staff* In Heaven Now

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    NeoDebo
    V.I.P. Forum Host
    Posts: 302
    (11/18/01 6:44:13 pm)
    | Edit | Del All I'm a bit afraid to say this...
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    ...but I think it is time for someone to speak out.

    NEW YORK, Nov. 18 /PRNewswire/ -- After he signed an order allowing the
    use of military tribunals in terrorist cases, President George W. Bush
    insisted he alone should decide who goes before such a military court, his
    aides tell Newsweek. The tribunal document gives the government the power to
    try, sentence -- and even execute -- suspected foreign terrorists in secrecy,
    under special rules that would deny them constitutional rights and allow no
    chance to appeal.

    FULL STORY

    Personally, I have begun to suspect that our President is not playing with a full deck. Megalomania perhaps? (greed for power: the enjoyment of having power over other people and the craving for more of it (disapproving))

    Anyone else, other than me, have feelings of discomfort when contemplating Bush's mental stability?

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2830
    (11/18/01 7:29:57 pm)
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    Nope.
    America, we are the symbol of Freedom and Liberty......

    1 dano
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 94
    (11/18/01 7:52:47 pm)
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    Extraordinary times / situations, require extraordinary solutions. Military tribunals could be one!

    AGunguy
    Moderator
    Posts: 755
    (11/18/01 7:57:18 pm)
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    Doesn't hurt to show the dark side that you've got some balls. They'll fear you after you cut there's off.

    Gunguy

    loader44
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 66
    (11/18/01 8:11:43 pm)
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    I agree with AGunguy.

    BlackGun
    Moderator
    Posts: 1687
    (11/18/01 9:58:55 pm)
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    I also agree with GG
    rules for survival: Sight alignment, Breath control, & Trigger Squeeze
    BlackGUN

    warpig883
    Moderator
    Posts: 1134
    (11/18/01 10:01:36 pm)
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    I agree with him also. I really do not believe the American people would let this get out of hand as far as it being used against us or abused in another way.
    custom signature

    gpostal
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1223
    (11/18/01 10:12:37 pm)
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    I don't believe it anyway {propaganda} ,besides that's what the CIA is for

    but if it were how would the American people stop it ,we have enough of a hard time keeping our own given rights ,let alone something done for "national security"

    warpig883
    Moderator
    Posts: 1136
    (11/18/01 10:18:49 pm)
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    I am not saying we would stop it over night but we could stop it. The potential abuse of powers from this could easily be cause for a revolution in its extreme form . The rest of the government would stop it. Organized marches, rallies, the media ect, ect.

    Remember one thing,

    WE The People have the power!
    custom signature

    TallTLynn
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2501
    (11/18/01 10:21:21 pm)
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    warpig - sometimes it is who has the biggest guns that has the power.

    That is what bothers me.

    Different name
    V.I.P. Forum Host
    Posts: 528
    (11/18/01 10:28:17 pm)
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    ezSupporter
    Re: bush
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    Hell fire then, why doesn't he just issue a warrant for Suddham and get everything off his mind!
    And, boy am I glad that I'm not EVIL!
    Court er.....wud sumwun dismiss me?
    Charlie D
    I'll betcha tha Indians will starta wearin their
    Feathers now!

    A Professional
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 43
    (11/19/01 1:21:34 am)
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    There are already secret trials/sentencing going on, been so for a while. There are just too many situations that are on a need.to.know basis, and the average citizen is on the bottom of that list. Doesn't bother me any... Im not at the bottom. Far from the top tho...

    warpig883
    Moderator
    Posts: 1139
    (11/19/01 6:08:49 am)
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    Thats crazy talk.
    frayed ends of sanity, everyones after me.

    hammer4nc
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 138
    (11/19/01 7:34:15 am)
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    First of all, I'd hesitate to draw conclusions, one way or the other, based on this one story. Yet, the old maxim, "he who ignores history is condemned to relive it..." or words to that effect, seem appropriate.

    Don't jump me on this people, I like Bush and what he's doing in response to the attacks. I'd echo warpig, who feels that the majority of Americans will prevent the emergency measures Bush has invoked, from becoming permanent, once this threat has passed. We hope and watch.

    However, if you do a little research, can't escape some parallels to the events of the early 30's, and the ascent of the National Socialists. Terrorist event (reichstag burning) was pretext for martial law (enabling acts), and the elevation of national police force (SS). Culminated in "Night of the Long Knives", where political opposition was exterminated, as terrorists. Anyone interested can do an internet search using some of the keywords above, and read a speech given July 13, 1933, where public safety was cited, as cause for a single person to become "supreme judge of the people" without apology.

    Again, before you attack me on this, please note that I'm in full support of Bush's actions, I think (and hope) his motives are pure. Yet, there are lots of people with agendas out there, who would think nothing of using this emergency to advance same. Lets all keep our eyes open.


    AGunguy
    Moderator
    Posts: 758
    (11/19/01 8:40:53 am)
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    Our constitution is what seperates us from the rest of the worlds unwashed heathens. We are citizens, not subjests or down trodden weak slaves who have to cow-tow to the biggest gun or sword. Our constitution was framed by fair minded men who knew from past experience that boys will be boys, and the good old boys will want to be the top dog. That's the experience of history that has envolved the world in one major fiasco after another for thousands of years.

    This latest evil cult of world terror is most certainly not going to be the last to come along. There will always be those who are afraid to face the situation and administer the propper cure to erase the evil intent. But erase it they must or they will not survive.

    If you as individuals no longer possess arms as is your citizens rights, then you are no longer citizens but subjects of tyrants, war lords or dictators. Your government is no longer the government that was framed by those just men in 1776.

    When the guns go, so does your freedom. We haven't gotten to that point and time yet but be vigilant and ready to defend your Constitution.

    Gunguy

    Edited by: AGunguy at: 11/19/01 8:42:53 am

    Xracer
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1198
    (11/19/01 8:42:03 am)
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    Very well said, hammer.


    gpostal
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1224
    (11/19/01 9:29:34 am)
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    ok I have heard more on this ,I don't know if it is propaganda or not but

    why would they need this new way of a trial ?
    what is wrong with the way we do it now ,even though they are not us citizens and "maybe" doing wrong ,I say maybe because of our supposed innocent until proven guilty , the wtc bombers of the past were not citizens and it worked for them

    so if we throw out our way of justice and reduce our selves to the way they dispense justice "they win"

    I don't settle for ,"if we don't know about it" we already do know

    I am telling you these new laws for terrorist can blow up in our face , remember bush wont be in office for ever ,what if gore wins the next one and he has these laws already voted in during bush's term ,think about that

    define terrorist :

    now take it and twist it

    [1]could a gun dealer with 500 guns in his shop and 100,000 rounds of ammo ,who happened to "speak out " against a politician be called a terrorist in order to suppress him

    [2]one of our children protesting in college against the government be a terrorist

    [3]what if one of our wrote a essay that is outspoken against our government

    [4]could us the members of this and other boards {who just happened to be armed ,some more than others} that speak out against the gov or irs be misconstrued as terrorist

    [5]militias =terrorist

    [6]gang members = terrorist {even harmless ones our kids might experiment with that we don't know about}even clubs or fraternity's



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    part of this new tribunal rules are ,the suspect might not get a lawyer , hearsay can be used as evidence

    death penalty is swift and no appeals

    this is for foreign terrorist ,but not all terrorist are foreign and this can be amended later

    and we the people do not have as much power as we think ,what are we going to do, go to arms against our government ?=terrorist

    so we wage a protest {see number[2] above

    and as far as "if we loose our guns we loose our freedom"our guns are a mere distraction while they rob us of other rights ,and our guns really mean nothing the government is only LETTING us have them ,they can take them away at anytime {kalifornia is a test}

    this is wrong wrong wrong!!!!!!!!

    Edited by: gpostal at: 11/19/01 9:35:09 am

    Indybear57
    V.I.P. Member
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    (11/19/01 10:54:50 am)
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    ezSupporter
    Re: I'm a bit afraid to say this...
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    We need tribunals because in order to secure a conviction in civil court the prosecution could be forced to reveal information in support of their charges that would present a threat to national security.

    Here's a view that I'm inclined to agree with.


    http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg111601.shtml


    NeoDebo
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    Posts: 304
    (11/19/01 2:07:08 pm)
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    The end result of abrogation of our Constitution is the same regardless of whether such abrogation is inflicted by a foreign power or whether it is imposed from within.

    If we piss away our Constitution, then the Bin Ladens of this world have won regardless of what happens to them individually. Either way, freedom and personal liberty are gone.

    We should not THROW AWAY our freedoms for any reason.

    Our current system of justice has worked reasonably well for hundreds of years.

    You say that you don't think that it works for criminals and terrorists from another country? Ask Mr. Noriega, formerly of Panama--now in our federal penal system, if it works or not.

    Same deal with Bin Laden and his ilk. I say bring 'em back and subject them to REAL American justice, not some cobbled-up secret court that does not derive its power from the American people. Try the bastard(s) just like any other criminal, in a free and open court, and deal with them as we did McVeigh and/or Noriega.

    We should protect our constitution with every fiber of our being--from enemies both foreign AND domestic! There is an agenda here, guys, and we should not permit those who would abrogate our Constitution to succeed with their nefarious plans. Unilateral destruction of our Constitution by an "American Dictator" and a miniscule number of his political cronies must not be tolerated.

    Who will be left to defend YOU when "THEY" decide to violate YOUR constitutional rights?

    Edited by: NeoDebo at: 11/19/01 8:56:15 pm

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2834
    (11/19/01 2:45:09 pm)
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    Debo, I ain`t worried...they`ll take them away if they want to anyway and nothing will change that fact.............
    America, we are the symbol of Freedom and Liberty......

    Xracer
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1201
    (11/19/01 5:14:50 pm)
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    More than 80,000 American citizens (plus another 40,000 Japanese aliens) were held in concentration camps during WWII.....no charges filed, no grand jury, no trial, no habeus corpus, no right to counsel.....

    During the Civil War, more than half of the Maryland Legislature was arrested and interned to keep them from voting on a measure of seccession......and dozens of newspaper editors were arrested for criticizing the government.

    .....all in the name of "War Emergency Powers"......

    teehee1
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 116
    (11/19/01 11:37:06 pm)
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    This goes back to the death penalty argument:...
    It may not be a deterrent but after the sentence is carried out the sucker won't do it(the crime/offense)
    ever again! I think the @#^**** media has planted this seed about The Pres and his mental capacity. He is 100% in my book.

    A Professional
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 46
    (11/20/01 1:47:47 am)
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    I'm not so sure about the Bush man myself. He may have the majority favor right now, but he seems like a nitwit to me. As for our constitutional rights, most of you have already signed some of them away! Got a drivers license? Your signature on it took away your free right to travel, that is "without" regulation. Did you know that?

    That is a big one, and it is necessary to use new laws and regulations to protect ourselves. But there are many more, smaller rights the American people have given up for an easier lifestyle.

    So WE are the ones who are pissing it away, by LETTING them take them. How many people vote, or have ever contacted their senators, or leaders to get things changed? We can all b!tch about what we don't like, but many Americans are too lazy, or don't care altogether, until its too late!

    So far, these changes haven't hurt our basic "human rights," but if we let this secret trial thing go on... then, were gonna get the shaft. Its our duty to prevent it.

    And the day they try and take my guns away, will be the day I kill my first federal agent. I think we all know it will never happen without a new revolution. I wouldn't give up my life for my guns, but for my children's future, I would... I will not accept them living in a country were they are controlled.

    shizamus
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 60
    (11/20/01 3:06:42 am)
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    2 weeks ago Bush signed HR 3162, he signed a wish list that
    would make Adolph Hitler Proud. From warantless secret searches to defining ANY criminal activity as Terrorism, Our
    Constitutional Republic was gutted on Friday, October 26 !
    The recent passage and signing of this Bill also known as the
    Patriot Act has effectively nullified at least Six Amendments
    of the Bill of Rights addendum to the U.S. Constitution. As a result of this, this country is no longer the great country it
    use to be but it is now a POLICE STATE, pure and simple !
    This Bill is in fact, a massive violation of the Constitution !
    This is a Bill that was voted on without any of the Congressmen being allowed to read the Bill !
    What would our Founding Fathers think of this Law ? Our
    forefathers would think it-s time for a revolution. This is why
    they revolted in the first place. They revolted against much more mild oppression ! This is the first time in the United States history that we now have a DICTATOR for a president !
    I cannot see how anyone can say he is 100% unless you are
    listening to the government controlled media !

    NeoDebo
    V.I.P. Forum Host
    Posts: 305
    (11/20/01 8:26:18 am)
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    TEXT OF BILL H.R.3162



    Our "leaders" have "let the dogs loose" in America.



    My prediction: Over time, and at a rapidly increasing rate, Freedom and Liberty as we knew it will disappear and the citizens of this once great nation will be forced to endure the horrors of a police state.



    RIP Freedom and Liberty...






    Edited by: NeoDebo at: 11/20/01 11:37:42 am

    southernfreedom
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    (11/20/01 8:55:45 am)
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    Debo: I support the new law. Using the current law it took 8 years to put
    the 1993 world trade center basement bombers on trial. Under current law Lawyers will file
    frivilous motion after motion and appeal after appeal dragging out the trial for years and years.
    The identity
    of informants will be revealed and they will be killed. No, this law is needed--------
    it does not apply to US citizens and is long overdue. I also support torture
    of suspected terrorists if it will save US lives.

    the real fredneck
    Moderator
    Posts: 487
    (11/20/01 10:48:20 am)
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    First you need to remember that it wasn't Hitler that made the "Final Solution" a reality, that was left to Reichsfurher Himmler. The one to keep your eyes on is Asscroft not Bush, in the various offices he held in MO, Auditor, AG, Govenor, U.S. Senator he consistently displayed a lack of concern for constitutional protections. Bush has to keep smiling for the cameras while "Loyal Heinrich" removes/dilutes as many of the first 10 amendments as possible. right now they are in the salami-slicing stage, we need to face the reality that our constitution needs protection from enemies, both foreign and domestic.

    Different name
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    (11/20/01 10:52:31 am)
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    ezSupporter
    Re: I'm a bit afraid to say this...
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    If all law is upheld only by government officials then all law is at an end!

    Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere!

    The history of liberty has largely been the history of
    observance of procedural safeguards.
    And, performed in open society!

    Note: Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the OTHER forms of government...Let us never lose it!

    Charlie D

    Please remember:
    Words are like leaves, and where they most abound, much
    fruit or sense beneath is rarely found...
    Beware of single minded transitions.

    shizamus
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 61
    (11/20/01 11:01:23 am)
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    I do not think that the new law exempts US citizens, have you seen this in writing? The way the new law reads, that any criminal activity can be called terrorism.
    You could be a terrorist if you jaywalk.
    You could be a terrorist if you read the Constitution.
    You could be a terrorist if you spit on the sidewalk. You could be a terrorist if you demand your rights.
    You could be a terrosist if you do not agree with your Government.
    Everyone speaking his mind on this forum is probably a TERRORIST. Which one of you would be exempt as a US citizen ?
    Now , if you feel that we should be Boiled in Oil for demanding
    our RIGHTS and FREEDOMS and the free excersize there of,
    makes me say that we are not on the same side in this battle.



    THE #1 ISSUE FACING US TODAY IS GOVERNMENT TERRORISM.

    TERRORISM COMES FROM THE TOP DOWN

    TYRANNY WILL COME TO YOUR DOOR IN A UNIFORM.

    shizamus
    V.I.P. Member
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    (11/20/01 11:07:01 am)
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    To the real fredneck and Different name

    I agree with you.
     
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