In addition...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by 1952Sniper, Mar 6, 2003.

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  1. 1952Sniper

    1952Sniper New Member

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    NeoDebo
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 687
    (12/20/02 6:27:41 pm)
    Reply In addition...
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    ...bush has done more to destroy individual freedom and liberty in this country than any other single person in history.

    Yeah. That's my opinion.

    -- ND


    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 5533
    (12/20/02 6:50:30 pm)
    Reply
    Re: In addition...
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    What do you think he should do. He is in charge of protecting the country. Do you think he should do nothing?
    In 49 states ignorance is a crime.In the other one it is bliss.


    Packet
    Member
    Posts: 18
    (12/20/02 7:36:05 pm)
    Reply Re: In addition...
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    THAT MAY BE YOUR OPINION, BUT WHERE ARE YOUR FACTS?

    Edited by: Packet at: 12/20/02 7:42:19 pm


    NeoDebo
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 688
    (12/21/02 12:28:51 am)
    Reply Re
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    Facts? I ain't got none. I have absolutely NO FACTS about this war except what has dripped down on my head from the media.

    The truth is that with regard to the upcoming "oil war #2" with Iraq, no person here knows a damm thing for certain. None of us has personal inside true knowledge. All that any of us has to go on is a slather of rehashed unabashed propaganda "leaked" by our "government" and served up countless times by the media. That, alone, should be reason enough for us to question the basis for this war and to ask why it is necessary to give up our constitutional rights.

    Nothing that you, or I, may say about this war counts except as an opinion.

    Do you remember the tales of the Iraqi's bayoneting babies in their incubators during bush 1's reign? Turned out to be damm lies dosed out for the purpose of whipping up public support for the first bush's "oil war #1". Same thing is happening now. Propaganda, lies repeated endlessly, repeated often enough, take on the aura of fact in the minds of many. That is why it is effective. From the looks of things, it is still working, too.

    Right now, those sharing my opinion and viewpoint are still in the minority. However, the number of those who are sympathetic to this viewpoint is approaching 50% and continues to increase.

    Propaganda seems to cause some to accept it as fact, and at the same time, cause others to question the motives of those who disseminate it.

    'Course (with apologies to Will), it's hoss races, like propaganda, that causes folks to have different opinions. Yeah, that's what causes them different opinions!

    -- ND


    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 5541
    (12/21/02 12:31:27 am)
    Reply
    Re: Re
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    What rights have we lost recently?
    In 49 states ignorance is a crime.In the other one it is bliss.


    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3275
    (12/21/02 9:02:06 am)
    Reply Re: Re
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    Well, Piggy.....if the U.S. Government decided to label you an "enemy combatant" (and they need not even define what that is), you lose your freedom (for an indefinate period of time), your right to counsel, your right to habeus corpus, your right to a speedy trial, and your right to trial by a jury of your peers.

    American citizens, arrested here in this country, have already lost these rights, and are now sitting in military prisons.


    TallTLynn
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 5191
    (12/21/02 9:11:23 am)
    Reply
    Re: Re
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    Sorry warpig going to side with XRacer and NeoDebo to the nth degree here.

    The government has been eroding our rights away (and most of us sat by quietly while they did so) for a very long time now.


    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 5549
    (12/21/02 11:40:34 am)
    Reply
    Re: Re
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    and it is the Presidents fault???


    How should enemy combatants be treated? This has been going on forever. It just now came a bit more into the open.

    I still don't see any rights I have lost related to the actions of our President. The erosion of our rights over time has been going on forever, it is not the fault of GW.

    As far as the enemy combatant thing goes, things have actually improved, in the past they just burned them out or shot them-Ruby Ridge and Waco are two examples.






    I just don't agree with the thought that the President and Government in general should sit back, especially during Wartime, and do nothing to defend the country. I think we should have learned something from 9-11 and security should be TIGHT.

    If it was me in charge EVERY soldier would be on US soil on the borders pointing their guns out. Then would would have no need for internal security, but as long as we have open borders we will have to take steps to defend the American people from enemies foriegn and domestic.

    I guess if the majority of the American people want open borders and giving terrorists free rein to run amuck in the country then I will have to go along with it.


    sorry for the ramble

    In 49 states ignorance is a crime.In the other one it is bliss. Edited by: warpig883 at: 12/21/02 11:54:10 am


    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 747
    (12/21/02 11:50:05 am)
    Reply | Edit Re: Re
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    I'm with ND on this one. VERY good point about not knowing the whole truth. All we know is the sadly distorted media crap that they repeat over and over and over. We argue back and forth about the "issues". But those issues are the ones the media wants to push. Those are the issues the government has allowed us to know about. What other issues are there? What are the REAL issues?

    As far as I'm concerned, I would rather risk another 9/11 than live in an America where our Constitutional rights can be simply ignored. No matter how much a guy looks or acts like a terrorist, there is no reason an American citizen should be held without his legal rights. Non-citizens, I don't care. Battlefield detainees, I don't care. But American citizens, I do care.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!


    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 5550
    (12/21/02 11:58:14 am)
    Reply
    Re: Re
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    I guess I am not quite ready to say that. Now I would give my life in defense of the country but I don't know if I would be willing to give thousands of lifes in an attack just so some scumbag gets a lawyer.


    Rest assured that you would not have to RISK an attack. I think you can count on one.

    Sniper
    So you don't think we should be taking any action to defend the country?

    To damn early in the morning to get all worked up and argue

    why aren't my danged quotes working????????
    In 49 states ignorance is a crime.In the other one it is bliss. Edited by: warpig883 at: 12/21/02 11:59:22 am


    505799
    Member
    Posts: 5
    (12/21/02 12:42:43 pm)
    Reply Lost rights... and more
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    Sorry, but you can't shift the blame to past Adminstrations. Its GW's fault, not only because most of this has been since September 11, 2001, but because he's done nothing to stop the erosion of rights started by past Adminstrations. If anything, he as accelerated the process.

    So wWhat rights have been lost since September 11, 2001?

    How about the right to freely assemble? The car the CIA destroyed in Yemen using a missile fired from a UAV killed an American citizen. AN AMERICAN CITIZEN. Why? Because he was in a car with a group of people of the government suspected of being members of a ?terrorist? organization. Suspected?

    How about the 2nd amendment right to keep and bear arms? The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) will confiscate any form of arms (e.g., knives, guns, and things that hardly qualify as arms) if you have it on your person and you attempt to pass the security checkpoint at an airport. Same goes for a number of other locations where other government agencies will do the same.

    How about the right of to be secure in your person, house, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, save when a warrant is issued upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized? Thanks to the ?USA Patriot Act? (just typing that name to describe that law makes me retch) gave the government the right to demand that booksellers and libraries turn over information about the things we read, without our knowledge or permission and without a warrant executed by a member of the judicial branch of government. The bookseller or library cannot refuse to comply, or they are automatically guilty of a felony. Wonder what would happen if the FBI demanded TFF turn over all records of which posts a member had read? Also, the TSA will be searching checked luggage, at their whim, without a person?s knowledge or consent, without a warrant, without probable cause, and if they damage, destroy or steal the contents of said luggage, they will not be held accountable.

    How about the right that says no person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury? And the right that says that in all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury. and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence? And the right that says a person shall not be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law?

    There are American citizens currently being held in both civil and military prisons, without presentment, arraignment, or indictment. These people have been deprived of the right to a speedy trial (some have been in since September 2001. They have also not been informed of the nature and cause of the accusation, nor been given the right to confront the witnesses against them, nor given access to counsel. Basically, they have been denied their liberty without any due process.

    How about the right that only the representatives of the States (also called the Congress) shall have the power to declare war? Bush keeps saying we are at in a ?war? on terrorism and appears hell bent on a starting a war with Iraq.

    How about the right to habeas corpus? The government has repeatedly rebuffed attempts to secure by habeas corpus the presence in a court of law those citizens currently held in military and civil prisons without indictment, bail, or due process.

    How about the right that says that the trial of all crimes (except impeachment) shall be by Jury? The Department of Defense is developing rules to have military tribunals for anyone (even citizens) who the government declares an ?enemy combatant?.

    Those rights are some of the rights we?ve lost since September 11, 2001. And GW was dead center in the middle of it. The only right the current Administration seems to be eager to guarantee is the right of the Congress to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived (unless you are in the top 1 percent income bracket).

    I worked in the Pentagon. People I know and worked with died there on September 11, 2001. Risk another horrible day like or live in a police state? Easy choice.

    I am student of history. Since the start of the 20th century) there are a number of examples of governments doing the sorts of things our government is now doing. Russia (starting in 1917). Germany (starting in 1923). Italy (starting in 1930). Cambodia (starting in 1975). Iraq (starting in 1975). Iran (starting in 1979). These experiences gave us new words or new meanings to old words. Words like: Gulag, Gestapo, Secret Police, Fascism, Communism, Holocaust, and chekist.

    One last note: If the government is so damned concerned about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction why are they not concerned that attacking Iraq will cause them to use the them? If you were backed into a corner and had nothing to loose cause you were a dead man no matter what course you took, wouldn?t you use them?


    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 5555
    (12/21/02 12:58:53 pm)
    Reply
    Re: Lost rights... and more
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    505799

    I looked at each one of your points above and if I wasn't feeling lazy I would type out why I think most of them are total BS

    But for the sake of arguement lets say you are 100% correct. What is your solution?
    In 49 states ignorance is a crime.In the other one it is bliss.


    teehee1
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 417
    (12/21/02 1:29:48 pm)
    Reply
    Re: Lost rights... and more
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    The root of a lot of this thread is believing ANYTHING the media tells us. I have to go with the thought that if you are so violenty opposed to what's being done and proposed, WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION?? Read the papers and sit comfortably in your chair and criticize, it's easy, did you also vote for Gore, and still believe he was swindled??? (This editorial "you" is directed to those taking the point of losing our freedoms and "this proposed useless oil war")


    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 748
    (12/21/02 2:54:11 pm)
    Reply | Edit Re: Lost rights... and more
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    Quote:
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    Sniper
    So you don't think we should be taking any action to defend the country?
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    I didn't say that. Heck, I'm all for taking out "evildoers" like Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden, and others like them. We do have to act responsibly, though. We don't have free reign to run all over the world and bomb anybody we choose. I think, for the moment, we're on the right approach with respect to foreign offensives to stem terrorist states.

    However, on the domestic front, I think we're cutting off our nose to spite our face. All the hand-wringers in America are once again pleading to Uncle Sam to come in and "fix it". So, predictably, the government is waltzing in and stripping away Constitutional rights to make people feel safer. They do the same thing to you, when they ban firearms.

    My point, warpig883, is that I see absolutely no reason to detain US citizens without the proper legal protections guaranteed under the Constitution. I don't care if the guy smacked an old lady or blew up a major city. The law is the law. We are guaranteed certain rights by the Constitution. A fair trial with proper representation is necessary to ensure that we remain a free people. Because today, they may be only detaining "alleged terrorists". Tomorrow it may be you. Or me. Or anybody they choose. I'm saying it's a bad precedent to set. It reeks of tyranny.

    So, my answer is that I fully support the idea of defending the people of America and defending free people all over the world from terrorism. But I DO NOT support this shady business that our government is engaging in, where they have to skirt around the Constitution to persecute people. The very fact that they are detaining people secretly, with no access to a lawyer, should give us reason to question what's really going on. I think there's more to it than meets the eye. I have no problem with the government keeping secrets to defend us, but not at the expense of the very people they are claiming to defend.

    --------edit------------
    Warpig883 said
    Quote:
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    why aren't my danged quotes working????????
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    When you're typing your text, right above the text box there are two radio buttons: Plain text, and ezCodes. You've got to hit the ezCodes button to be able to use the ezCodes. Hope that helps....
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    Edited by: 1952Sniper at: 12/21/02 3:53:13 pm


    505799
    Member
    Posts: 6
    (12/21/02 3:42:30 pm)
    Reply My solution
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    My solution? Its simple really.

    It starts with understanding the form and structure of my government. What it can do and what it can't do.

    It has at its core staying informed by getting information on things I am concerned about. Getting that information from multiple sources, especially from sources that I find disagreeable. Then thinking the issue through and taking a position.

    It continues with being willing to spend the time to send my elected representatives (Messrs. Bush, Robb, Warner, and Wolf) letters; letters expressing my concerns and wanting to know what they are doing to resolve those concerns. It means following up when I get replies that are platitudes and not answers. It also means telling them when they've done something I agree with.

    My solution appears at every election... I vote!!! Since I was old enough to vote (and its been a while) I have never, repeat never, failed to perform this civic duty. Those that don't vote deserve the despotism they'll get in return. I usually vote against the incumbent because I believe it is the professional politicans that are the root cause of the problems our nation faces.

    My solution is based on demanding openness, honesty, equality, selflessness, and above all, integrity, from my government and the people in it.

    My solution is to expect elected officials and civil servants to do their very best at whatever task they perform. We have the right to expect nothing less.

    My solution... it is really simple:

    Each of us take the responsibility to act to correct the things we believe are wrong and to encourage the things we believe are right.

    As for your view about my statements, that's okay with me. Glad to hear it. Challenge my thinking.

    I ask only one favor.... if you think what I've said is wrong, tell me why. Don't just say my views are BS. It is that attitude that is destroying our nation.


    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 5556
    (12/21/02 4:02:04 pm)
    Reply
    Re: My solution
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    505799, I just now started to do just that. I was going to give my reason that I think the above points you made are bunk. Fact is, I feel they are so much delusional garbage (most of them) that I refuse to even address them.

    Not trying to be a jerk here, I guess I just am not in the mood to get into it. Maybe later

    Need time to clear my mind. I get angry when I read what you typed
    In 49 states ignorance is a crime.In the other one it is bliss.


    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 5558
    (12/21/02 4:46:01 pm)
    Reply
    Re: My solution
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    ok, I took the bait.




    Quote:
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    Sorry, but you can't shift the blame to past Adminstrations. Its GW's fault, not only because most of this has been since September 11, 2001, but because he's done nothing to stop the erosion of rights started by past Adminstrations. If anything, he as accelerated the process.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Most of this has been done since 9-11???? ALL of this is the cause of administrations before GW. He is trying to clean up the mess. You even say the past administrations started an erosian of our right. Yet you hold GW reponsible for this?


    Quote:
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    How about the right to freely assemble? The car the CIA destroyed in Yemen using a missile fired from a UAV killed an American citizen. AN AMERICAN CITIZEN. Why? Because he was in a car with a group of people of the government suspected of being members of a ?terrorist? organization. Suspected?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    This has ZERO to do with the right to freely assemble. This was a person in another country who was not attempting to assemble in any way that I can fathom. Do you suppose they should have stopped the car and asked if there was a good guy inside witht he terrorists before they blew it up. If so then you are probably against any type of ariel bombing at all. What if that American would have been killed by a bomb while he was seated in a cave next to the SUSPECTED terrorist Osama Bin Laden. The right to freely assemble- come on that one does not hold water at all in this situation.



    Quote:
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    How about the 2nd amendment right to keep and bear arms? The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) will confiscate any form of arms (e.g., knives, guns, and things that hardly qualify as arms) if you have it on your person and you attempt to pass the security checkpoint at an airport. Same goes for a number of other locations where other government agencies will do the same
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    While I personally do not agree with this there is NOTHING wrong with an Airline says no guns/ other weapons allowed on our planes. This is like members of TFF who get mad at us when tehy cuss on the forum. They yell First Amendment right away. TFF is private and the First Amendment does not apply. Same as the aiplines. I will say that the Government should not be making this rule. It should be the airlines doing it. ANd I seem to remember in the early 80's I could not on an airplane with a knife in my pocket in Sioux Falls, SD. I think this is a mute point as the rules have always been there concerning things such as knives and guns.


    Quote:
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    How about the right of to be secure in your person, house, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, save when a warrant is issued upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized? Thanks to the ?USA Patriot Act? (just typing that name to describe that law makes me retch) gave the government the right to demand that booksellers and libraries turn over information about the things we read, without our knowledge or permission and without a warrant executed by a member of the judicial branch of government. The bookseller or library cannot refuse to comply, or they are automatically guilty of a felony. Wonder what would happen if the FBI demanded TFF turn over all records of which posts a member had read? Also, the TSA will be searching checked luggage, at their whim, without a person?s knowledge or consent, without a warrant, without probable cause, and if they damage, destroy or steal the contents of said luggage, they will not be held accountable.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------






    This I agree with you except the part about checking luggage. No different than if I choose to search people before I let them in my house. They don't like it they can leave. if they want in then they consent to the search. (this isn't a bad idea when it comes to inlaws) The Patriot Act does go to far, as it affects things we do in the privacy of our home.



    Quote:
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    How about the right that says no person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury? And the right that says that in all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury. and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence? And the right that says a person shall not be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law?

    There are American citizens currently being held in both civil and military prisons, without presentment, arraignment, or indictment. These people have been deprived of the right to a speedy trial (some have been in since September 2001. They have also not been informed of the nature and cause of the accusation, nor been given the right to confront the witnesses against them, nor given access to counsel. Basically, they have been denied their liberty without any due process
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------




    I agree with this, I also do not think the Government is grabbing citizens at thier whim. I think they have good reason to be proclaiming these people as enemy combatants. There is a fine line here because it is wartime. This is one of those things that I think the media has really confused. Yes, i do think they should be getting a fair trail and legal representation IF national security permits. We are at war and i don't think most of the American people realize this, and the consequenses that come with it.


    Quote:
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    How about the right that only the representatives of the States (also called the Congress) shall have the power to declare war? Bush keeps saying we are at in a ?war? on terrorism and appears hell bent on a starting a war with Iraq.
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    Are you telling me that when 9-11 happened that it was not an act that put us at war? Are you saying that Congress did/does not approve of what we are doing in Afganistan? Even the cretin Tom Daschle did not have the audacity to say we should not fight back. The Iraq thing is BS, I will agree.


    Quote:
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    How about the right that says that the trial of all crimes (except impeachment) shall be by Jury? The Department of Defense is developing rules to have military tribunals for anyone (even citizens) who the government declares an ?enemy combatant?.
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    I think the media has got this subject all screwed around. I don't believe in an instant this is going to happen. To far fetched for me. Don't believe the media crap about this. They are just trying to get the American people worked up.



    Quote:
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    One last note: If the government is so damned concerned about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction why are they not concerned that attacking Iraq will cause them to use the them? If you were backed into a corner and had nothing to loose cause you were a dead man no matter what course you took, wouldn?t you use them?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    I think the Iraq war to be is total BS.


    I still have not seen a single right I have lost. I think ALL these things were happening before. They are being exagerated soley for the benefit of turning the American people against the Republican President and Government.

    I am really not trying to argue with you just out of spite. I just do not comprehend how you and others can blame all the problems on GW. I don't know if I should take these views as those of pessimists,liberals,anarchists, or just the type who will complain no matter what is done. I just do not see how GW refusing to take action after 9-11 would solve things. I think something had to be done. I can hardly believe that a person who feels that GW should not have done nothing after 9-11 could be called an American Patriot by any definition.

    I think we are probably on the same side here and want the same thing. We just have our wires crossed (tied in a knot).

    I am still waiting for what you think GW should have done.


    I think we are a long, long way away from a police state. But then I have always been an optimist

    In 49 states ignorance is a crime.In the other one it is bliss. Edited by: warpig883 at: 12/21/02 5:00:42 pm


    teehee1
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 418
    (12/21/02 6:31:27 pm)
    Reply
    Re: My solution
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    Quote:
    "My solution is to expect elected officials and civil servants to do their very best at whatever task they perform. We have the right to expect nothing less".

    505799 If you really believe this crap you definitely need help and a heck of a lot of direction. I am in my 6th decade on this
    mortal coil, and for at least the past 4 of them has any politician given a sh*t about his constituents welfare or
    wishes. ALL politicians are there on a power trip(that's OK) but it's turned in to the game of how soon can I reap (rape)
    my benefits of my giant pension and all the percs of spending my PAC money without any supervision and line my pockets with political favors. There is no system of govt better than
    ours but it's still very flawed. The Democrats and their Racists
    are OK and the media leave them alone,. BUT God forbid a Republican slips up, you can readily see the crucifying
    results.


    ibtrukn
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 1538
    (12/21/02 6:59:33 pm)
    Reply Re: My solution
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    Warpig and TeeHee: RITE ON!!!


    riderbob
    Member
    Posts: 8
    (12/21/02 11:51:52 pm)
    Reply my solution
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    Hey guys Sounds like you are both a couple of America Loving Patriots. And you both have valid points. Here are a few things that i have concluded in my 36 years.

    1 We only give power to the people who want it. (Lesser of two evils?)

    2. If a lie is told often enough it becomes the truth.
    (That is propaganda be it right or wrong)
    3. Freedom is inherent to human nature, but so is control. Through out time they have both waxed and waned, but freedom always prevails. You just have to oppress enough people for them to realize that they have God given rights. Not just the rights the controller (government) says they have.


    Remember what Ben Franklin said "Those willing to sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither"

    Riderbob


    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 755
    (12/22/02 4:29:45 pm)
    Reply | Edit Re: my solution
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    Warpig883 said:
    Quote:
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    We are at war and i don't think most of the American people realize this, and the consequenses that come with it.
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    You're right. I'm one of those people who doesn't realize it. Has our Congress officially declared a war? Not that I can recall. All I remember is Bush saying we're going to fight a "war on terror". Well, whoopty freakin' doo! We've been fighting a "war on drugs" for a long time, and I don't recall anyone ever being allowed to set aside the Constitution for it. What about the "war on poverty" or the "war on smoking"? I also remember a "war on teenage pregnancy", and the list goes on.

    My point is, just because a politician calls it a war, doesn't necessarily make it a war. Bush is going to have to do a lot better than that, in order to convince me that it's necessary to suspend the Constitution in order to protect our national security.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!


    Shizamus
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 20
    (12/22/02 7:38:49 pm)
    Reply Re: my solution
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    I can't believe you guys.
    If i have to take sides i will have
    to go with 1952 & 505799 ! warpig is really
    sending some mixed messages. Bush is
    out Klintoning Klinton , if you cannot see this
    then some homework is in order.
    you all need to go www.infowars.com for
    some education.
    I can see how death by friendly fire can come about !
    There is a problem here !

    Edited by: Shizamus at: 12/24/02 1:19:38 am


    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 5583
    (12/22/02 7:52:26 pm)
    Reply
    Re: my solution
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    Sniper,

    My point is, is that we were attacked and this action put us at war whether congress has admitted it or. With the exception of the Patriot Act I feel GW has done an OUTSTANDING job.

    Shizamus
    Bush is out klintoning Klinton?????

    I would take GW any day over Clinton
    In 49 states ignorance is a crime.In the other one it is bliss.


    shooter22
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 1774
    (12/22/02 9:54:09 pm)
    Reply Re: my solution
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    Quote:
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    Facts? I ain't got none. I have absolutely NO FACTS about this war except what has dripped down on my head from the media.
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    Now there is the first group I would listen to!

    Hey, Bin Laden, our women can kick you butt!

    Edited by: shooter22 at: 12/22/02 9:54:39 pm


    Shizamus
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 21
    (12/22/02 10:12:42 pm)
    Reply Re: my solution
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Give me a break...Bush is doing an outstanding job ? give
    me a break ! 9/11 prior knwledge, reichland security, the
    patirot act, stopping VA benefits to Vets, etc . and this
    Skull & Bones man is doing an outstanding job you say ?
    And i thought i was in a Constitutional forum here.
    Believe me this is not a hard one "HER BUSH IS OUT KLINTONING HER KLINTON" in other words Her Klinton was bad,
    Her BUSH is worse, he is a Dictator !

    Education is free at www.infowars.com

    Edited by: Shizamus at: 12/23/02 12:26:04 pm


    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 5589
    (12/23/02 12:08:26 am)
    Reply
    Re: my solution
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You must be one of them conspiracy theory guys.

    You are right GW is the root of all evil and the downfall of America. Everything bad that has happened and is going to happen is HIS fault. As a matter of fact I think he should resign based on the way he is single handedly destoying America.

    I bet he is even the one that set Monica L. onto Bill Clinton. There is no way that could be Clinton's fault when Bush is the man to blame.



    Quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    9/11 prior knwledge
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    I don't believe that for a moment












    I hear that George B senior helped the Japs plan the attack on Pearl Harbor.


























    Sarcasm intended
    In 49 states ignorance is a crime.In the other one it is bliss. Edited by: warpig883 at: 12/23/02 12:48:56 am


    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 5590
    (12/23/02 12:14:31 am)
    Reply
    It is all Bush's fault
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    So you voted for Bill Clinton?

    THINK ABOUT IT!
    > After the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, which killed six and injured
    > 1,000; President Clinton promised that those responsible would be
    > hunted down and punished.
    >
    > After the 1995 bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed five U.S. military
    > personnel; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down
    > and punished.
    >
    > After the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed 19
    > and injured 200 U.S. military personnel; Clinton promised that those
    > responsible would be hunted down and punished.
    >
    > After the 1998 bombing of U.S. embassies in Africa, which killed 224 and
    > injured 5,000; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted
    > down and punished.
    >
    > After the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole, which killed 17 and injured
    > 39 U.S. sailors; Clinton promised that those responsible would
    > be hunted down and punished.
    >
    > Maybe if Clinton had kept his promise, an estimated 7,000 people in New
    > York and Washington, D.C. that are now dead would be Alive today.

    AND IT IS ALL THE FAULT OF PRESIDENT BUSH
    In 49 states ignorance is a crime.In the other one it is bliss.


    twins
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 343
    (12/23/02 4:09:43 am)
    Reply Re: my solution
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    What you all ("you" not directed at anyone) fail to realize is, that before there was ever a reason for this IMPENDING war, is that you bit hook, line and sinker that we needed a war to oust So Damn Insane. All this before the tarmac was cold in Afghanistan. This was planned many, many months in advance and TO many people are blindly following this notion. It's about revenge, it's about power, it's about Bush and it's about oil. It is not about the safety of you and me. If it were, we would be at North Korea's throat with a dagger. They are a much more tangible threat than Iraq. AND THEY ARE CRAZY and not afraid of us. I don't believe Hussein is afraid either, I believe he is playing his hand.

    There is a web site that predicts the time we will go to war, there is a gov't budget drawn up as to how much this war will cost, the time line runs from a short war on up to TEN years. A few hundred million up to billions, that is a lot of money. Another Vietnam, not likely, but what exactly are they trying to say with a ten year plan? Do you think America is ready as a nation for a drawn out war like Vietnam? Do you think that we can handle to dead? We are a much different nation than we were in the 60's and 70's. War was "fresh" back then. We had war in the 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's. The loss and devastation was more "common" or maybe more known is a better word. Look at Grenada, people don't even realize that we had soldiers killed there, it is forgotten. The gulf war was swift and very low KIA. It has been called a "video game" mentality when referring to war. Can we as a society buy into this two years from now when or if American soldiers are coming home in the numbers they did in Vietnam? Will it continue to be justified and if not, how will we turn away from it and will we remain a credible nation in the world?

    twins


    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 5595
    (12/23/02 11:28:34 am)
    Reply
    Re: my solution
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I agree twins, good post.
    Don't blame yourself or anyone else for your mistakes or ideals. BLAME PRESIDENT BUSH.


    Tac401
    Administrator
    Posts: 6660
    (12/23/02 1:39:52 pm)
    Reply
    Re: my solution
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sorry folks, somehow this post was accidentally moved to
    our FFE forum.


    Carry on as you wish, interesting topic on both points of
    view.

    Tac
    TFF VMBB Email Tac


    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 761
    (12/23/02 4:12:43 pm)
    Reply | Edit Re: my solution
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Looks like I missed a bit....

    I like your sarcastic side, warpig! Funny stuff! Gave me a good chuckle there.
    Quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    My point is, is that we were attacked and this action put us at war whether congress has admitted it or. With the exception of the Patriot Act I feel GW has done an OUTSTANDING job.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Being attacked doesn't put us at war. It puts us on the defensive. How can you go to war without a clear enemy? We attacked Afghanistan, and with good cause; to root out Al Qaeda. I agreed with it then and I still do. But Iraq? I don't see the connection. I really want to take out Saddam Hussein too, but give me a good reason! Give me something that makes me want to go over there and kill him myself! Don't give me these vague innuendos of WMD. I need something tangible, something that clearly identifies a threat. The world needs it too. We are about to achieve "global bully" status even with our best friends.

    To address some of the previous posts, I don't think Bush is the father of all evil, or anything like that. But I do think he was put into a position where he had to act with a strong hand. And IMHO he has did what was necessary. But he has picked up momentum, and he's not showing any signs of stopping or even slowing down. It's almost as if he's trying to piss off the whole world, including his own people. I think he's riding some kind of political roller coaster and he may not even be able to stop himself now. It's getting out of hand, FAST! I don't think he's worse than Klinton yet, but if he keeps it up, he will be.

    I am boldly stepping up and saying to all of you here: I will not vote for Bush again. In fact, I will adamantly oppose him in the next election, with more than my usual political vigor. Unless he can somehow convince me that he is not a madman bent on world domination and subservience, I will have to vote for someone else. Who is running on the Libertarian ticket in '04?
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!


    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 5602
    (12/23/02 5:25:12 pm)
    Reply
    Re: my solution
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I agree with you on the Iraq stuff 1952sniper.
    Don't blame yourself or anyone else for your mistakes or the downfalls of the USA. BLAME PRESIDENT BUSH.


    308bolt
    Member
    Posts: 30
    (12/23/02 8:20:05 pm)
    Reply Re: my solution
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    For what it's worth here are my thoughts.
    I voted for our current president because he was the most likely candidate that had any chance of winning an election that could and maybe would protect our constitution. In particular my concern is the 2nd amendment. As he chose his cabinet I saw that my vote was not misplaced. He has surrounded himself with experienced politicians who in my opinion are straight shooters, no bull, at least in comparison to the alternatives. What happened 0n 911 made his career as a politician, it has assured his place in the history books. This is the dream and the goal of many politicians. There is a part of my mind that tells me that this man may well be a patriot. I've seldom been accused of being naive . What is happening with this country since 911 scares the heck out of me. Articles in the" mirror" are there to sell newsprint. I lend little credence to the rantings of a pulp rag. If I just kicked someones sacred cow then so be it. I ask this : How do we know when it is time to no longer complacently sit by and see our Rights eroded? What event or series of events will tell us that it's to late for words and actions are necessary? I think that we are at a juncture which can go either way. I believe that the citizens of the United States being one of the last armed citizenrys in the world can and will elect to maintain our freedoms in spite of the opposition from jealous nations that have given up their freedom by being complacent. I know that it seems Pollyannaish but--- at the same time I'm stocking up on ammo. IF our current president decides to he may begin a new world freedom rather than a "new World Order". Let us encourage him to propogate liberty while we buy ammo. I apoligize for the stream of consciousness reply but to be honest it is very difficult to think about these things with out getting paranoid.
    Steve/308bolt

    Edited by: 308bolt at: 12/23/02 8:29:16 pm


    JackRyann
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 82
    (12/24/02 1:37:53 am)
    Reply
    Re: Warpig, ect.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    My point is, is that we were attacked and this action put us at war whether congress has admitted it or. With the exception of the Patriot Act I feel GW has done an OUTSTANDING job.

    Attacked by whom? Mostly Saudi Citizens trained in Afgahastan by a Saudi citizen.

    So this results in an attack on Iraq?

    How does Irag threaten any part of US soil?

    Do you believe he has the potential or intention to invade us?


    ---If you wouldn't take that shot with the LAST bullet in your gun, you don't have any business taking it with the FIRST.---


    Shizamus
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 24
    (12/24/02 2:35:55 am)
    Reply Re: Warpig, ect.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    With the exception of the Fatherland eh Motherland eh
    Reichland eh Homeland Security act and with the exception of
    the Model state health emergency act and with the exception
    of the Patriot act and with the exception of doing away with
    health care benefits for the veterans this son of a Bush
    is doing an outstanding, outstanding, outstanding job at
    creating MAXIMUM TYRANNY right here on our own soil.

    Free education at www.infowars.com andwww.prisonplanet.com

    Edited by: Shizamus at: 12/25/02 12:29:33 am


    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 5612
    (12/24/02 3:25:25 am)
    Reply
    you make me laugh
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Don't blame yourself or anyone else for your mistakes or the downfalls of the USA. BLAME PRESIDENT BUSH.


    505799
    Member
    Posts: 9
    (12/24/02 7:59:56 am)
    Reply More on this topic....
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Someone challenged the assertion that the actions being debated here occurred after September 11, 2001. Let?s get the facts on the table.

    - The ?USA Patriot Act? [retch] was signed into law by President Bush on October 26, 2001. Seems like most of the people engaged in this thread think it is a bad piece of legislation.
    - The Executive Order directing the Department of Defense to develop rules to try people using military commissions and denying ?enemy combatants? trial in a civilian court was signed and issued by President Bush on November 13, 2001.
    - The Aviation and Transportation Security Act (which created the Transportation Security Administration) was signed into law by President Bush on November 19, 2001.
    - The CIA killed the American citizen in Yemen on November 7, 2002.

    This challenge also suggested that the concerns were solely with the actions of President Bush and the only President Bush was responsible. That is not the case. It was said that the current Administration AND previous Administrations (from George Washington to William Clinton) are responsible.

    There was also a comment that the media is trying to get the people of the US turned against the current Administration (a vast left wing conspiracy?) using the issue of military tribunals. Here are two very concerning excepts taken right from the Executive Order (if you want to read the whole thing, it?s available at the White House website). Draw your own conclusions

    ?? it is not practicable to apply in military commissions under this order the principles of law and the rules of evidence generally recognized in the trial of criminal cases in the United States district courts.?

    ?With respect to any individual subject to this order -- (1) military tribunals shall have exclusive jurisdiction with respect to offenses by the individual; and (2) the individual shall not be privileged to seek any remedy or maintain any proceeding, directly or indirectly, or to have any such remedy or proceeding sought on the individual's behalf, in (i) any court of the United States, or any State thereof, (ii) any court of any foreign nation, or (iii) any international tribunal.?

    So far as anyone declared an enemy combatant (and US citizens have been declared enemy combatants), this one paragraph does away with the entire concept of separation of powers. It does away with the opening statement in Article III, Section 1: ?The judicial Power of the United States shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish.? It means that the person has no right of appeal to the Supreme Court of the United States or any of the lesser courts (i.e., the Court of Appeals). The only appeal that can be made is to the head of the Executive Branch (i.e., the President), a concept similar to the idea of appeal only to the sovereign (i.e., the king) under pre-Magna Carta English law.

    Yes, it may be true that none of us has personally suffered the loss of any right. That is not true for all of our fellow citizens, reprehensible bastards though they might be.

    Instead of charging them with treason (or other violation of the law) in a Federal court, ensuring they have access to legal counsel, the ability to confront witnesses against them during a trial before a jury of their peers, the President has tried repeatedly to deny them their Constitutional rights. This action is indefensible. We have civilian courts in which wrongdoers can be tried and prisons to incarcerate those convicted (prisons where I hope they share a cell with a smelly, ugly 300 pound bull-hung homosexual who thinks they?re really, really cute).

    When the government gets away with violating the rights of any one of us, the government has violated the rights of all of us.

    This is not the view of a pessimist, a liberal, an anarchist, or ?just the type who will complain no matter what is done.? It is not the view of a person that thinks nothing should have happened in the aftermath of September 11, 2001.

    It is, however, the view of an American citizen who believes his government has started doing things that are flat WRONG.

    Happy Christmas.


    NeoDebo
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 692
    (12/24/02 11:46:03 am)
    Reply Re: 505799
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Amen.

    Well said!

    -- ND


    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 5617
    (12/24/02 12:13:50 pm)
    Reply
    yowser
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Don't blame yourself or anyone else for your mistakes or the downfalls of the USA. BLAME PRESIDENT BUSH.


    JayL
    Member
    Posts: 35
    (12/24/02 1:05:29 pm)
    Reply
    Re: my solution
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We've been fighting a "war on drugs" for a long time, and I don't recall anyone ever being allowed to set aside the Constitution for it.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    While I agree with most of what you said, man did you blow it on the part above. Seizure of "guilty property", warrantless searches, no-knock warrants, RICO prosecutions of people with no ties to organized crime; all these are common and frequently exercised legacies of the "war on drugs", and they are all just as unconstitutional as can be.
    Jay L

    "Move, Shoot, Communicate!"


    505799
    Member
    Posts: 10
    (12/24/02 2:10:19 pm)
    Reply Website mentioned in post by Twins
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Twins,

    You mentioned a website that contained predictions on the date we will go to war, etc.

    What is the web address of that site?

    Happy Christmas all.


    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 766
    (12/24/02 9:47:06 pm)
    Reply | Edit Re: Website mentioned in post by Twins
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You may be right, JayL. I guess the Constitutional violations you mentioned have set the stage for the ones we're seeing now. The "war on drugs" has been on the back burner for quite a while now, and most Americans don't even pay attention to it any more.

    I suspect that one day the "war on terror" will do the same thing. Yet we will all have lost something because of it.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!


    Different name
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 2705
    (12/25/02 2:26:37 pm)
    Reply
    Re: my solution
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    FREEDOM = LIBERTY
    Can anyone define "Americanism"*

    * Is this word peculiar to AMERICA?
    JUST WHO are the people that are skilled in
    provisos exacting provable direction, suiting
    to the best interests ALL, (Free of any portents
    mixed with confusion or undue uproar......(unduly vilifying)

    Charlie D
    WE NEED THESE PEOPLE NOW!

    Where are they?


    whiteclouder
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 300
    (12/25/02 5:26:18 pm)
    Reply Re: my solution
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    505:


    Quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Twins

    You mentioned a website that contained predictions on the date we will go to war, etc.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    I thought we had another real thinker on here until that post. Toast!


    warpig:

    Hang in there, you're doing fine. Remind them that fear and ignorance sleep well together.

    Clouder..


    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 5634
    (12/25/02 8:19:27 pm)
    Reply
    Re: my solution
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Thanks for the words of encouragement Wally. Just what I needed to get back into this mess
    Don't blame yourself or anyone else for your mistakes or the downfalls of the USA. BLAME PRESIDENT BUSH.


    twins
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 345
    (12/26/02 3:35:07 am)
    Reply Re: my solution
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Whiteclouder,
    I have never been to it, I don't even know what the httpis and have no interest in seeing it. I was made aware of that site by one of the guys who was in a class I was also taking at college. It has nothing to do with my thoughts or knowledge (limited as it may be) on the subject, it only illustrates the general consensus that no matter what, we will go to war. I find the "reports" from the gov't on the "proposed" costs much more interesting than the ramblings of some "webmaster".
    As I stated, when people are asked about Iraq, the general consensus it is not if, but when we will go to war. No one thinks it may happen, everyone thinks that it will happen and since GW says so, it is so, no questions asked, and if you do ask questions you must be a _________.
    As of yet, there has been no proof we need to start a war, but it seems to be accepted that we NEED to and are going to go to war. I do realize a nation does not just one day decide to "go to war", (especially one who's military has been downsized), that there has to preparing, training, acclimation and planing, however, when do these actions become reasoned and legitimate, and when do they come to bear. Why is there so much discord when people ask one simple question, "why"?
    twins


    twins
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 346
    (12/26/02 3:44:15 am)
    Reply Re: my solution
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    505799,
    I do not know the web address and I don't know if I will be able to find it. I will watch for the guy who reported on it and see if he remembers. We had finals last week and I have not seen him since, but I will keep an eye open. Keep in mind that this site, to my knowledge, is not anything more than a private persons guessing site. I just used it's existence to illustrate a common thought. Last I heard in class the "guesstimate" was some time between Jan somthing and Feb something.
    twins


    505799
    Member
    Posts: 16
    (12/26/02 12:06:35 pm)
    Reply Your last post.....
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Whiteclouder:

    I was under the impression that posts on TFF were not to include personal attacks.

    As for your view of my question as to the website address that was referenced:

    How can asking for the source of information another referenced be anything other than the correct approach to deciding how to evaluate their statement? Are you suggesting we accept every statement made as factual, correct, and a proper presentation of the facts?

    There is a saying a my pastor uses that seems to apply:

    ?There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation.?

    I, for one, refuse to be kept in everlasting ignorance.

    I intend to reevaluate my interest in this Forum.

    Apparently, it is not what it claims.


    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 5644
    (12/26/02 12:56:51 pm)
    Reply
    Play nice
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    505799, I am not seeing the personal attack here. Believe me when I tell you this thread is being watched by more than one to make sure it does not get out of hand.

    The internet does not allow the reader to observe body language, spoken and unspoken nuances, or the occasional scowl, chuckle, or look of confusion. Once you get to know a person's posting style you can tell when you are being attacked. I have been reading Clouders posts for a couple years, here and around the internet. I don't think he was giving you a personal attack, just his way of disagreeing with your thougths.


    And actually, I also think that a website or person who can predict "when we will go to war" is bullpucky This is what I think Clouder was trying to say.


    If I am wrong on this I am sure Clouder will let us know.

    Lets keep it clean guys.

    I cain't spell fer nuthin 2day
    Don't blame yourself or anyone else for your mistakes or the downfalls of the USA. BLAME PRESIDENT BUSH. Edited by: warpig883 at: 12/26/02 1:00:30 pm


    twins
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 347
    (12/27/02 12:59:33 am)
    Reply Re: In addition...
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I heard on the news that we have started bombing targets in Iraq that are in the southern no fly zone. I believe what I heard was that there does not have to be a conflict or action by Iraq toward us, only a "threat" for us to act upon.

    I don't believe anyone can predict when it will happen as an all out engagement, well, maybe Bush. He probably has the inside track on that. The website in my opinion should only be used as entertainment, as most should be.

    I'll keep an eye out as I said I would for the person who brought it to my attention.


    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 772
    (12/29/02 8:09:44 pm)
    Reply | Edit Re: Play nice
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We've been bombing targets in the no-fly zone for years now. It just never interested anyone until recently.....

    As an interesting side note, I saw a comment above about starting a war with a downsized military. Well, the other day I saw big headlines in the newspaper that read, "US Now Ready for 2 Wars" or something like that. It has always been a part of our SOP to be militarily ready for 2 simultaneous wars, until Clinton came in and pillaged our military. That was one of Bush's big campaign promises, if you'll remember. He was going to rebuild the military.

    I may be out of touch, but I can't seem to wrap my mind around this. How, in the span of 2 years, have we gone from a country that could barely fight one war to a country that can now fight 2 wars? Did we bring back the draft? I know they've increased the defense budget dramatically since 9/11, but you can't just build planes and tanks and bombs that quickly. So who is lying here? Was our military really that bad off in 2000? Or are we really that well-prepared now? I just don't see how both can be true.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!


    Chas
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 107
    (12/30/02 1:52:02 pm)
    Reply prepared
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I know it looks like a contradiction...but it's all a matter of interpretation

    It may depend on how they define a "war." I don't think they include a conflict with N Korea's 1.5 million troops and a simultanious conflict with China's billions. They could, however, simultaniously fight wars with Greenland and Nova Scotia (as long as they didn't last into winter).

    On paper, I'm sure that US forces appear (and are) quite forminable. When you lump together our scattered forces in Bosnia, NATO, Kuwait, Afghanistan, etc., along with our standing forces plus our reservists, it's probably pretty impressive.

    Course' then ya got the propaganda machine rollin': "don't mess with us...just 'cause we're fighten' Iraq doesn't mean we can't come and kick yo butt too..."

    Chas


    Tac401
    Administrator
    Posts: 6731
    (12/31/02 1:56:09 am)
    Reply
    Re: Play nice
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I would think that such a large build up would be
    fairly noticeable.


    Tac
    TFF VMBB Email Tac
     
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