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Discussion Starter #1
Hi everyone, I apologize if this has been done before, but I did what I thought was a thorough search in case this rifle had been posted previouly.

My friend is getting married and they are selling some family items to free up some cash for the new home. The mother-in-law had a couple of rifles and a pistol, which I could identify and price one rifle and the pistol myself with some online sleuthing. This one was not so easy - I've seen many sites with these for sale but the value seems to be all over the place for this particular rifle.

The rifle externally is antique and worn looking - the barrel itself, at least to my untrained eye, appears to be remarkably unfired - I don't think this gun was used very much but it certainly could have been taken better care of.

I would really appreciate some insight and an idea of value for it - I have attached some pictures with markings/serial numbers etc and can easily post more if necessary.

Thank in advance.

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If you were searching for rifle, it is no wonder that you did not find anything since it is a double barrel shotgun.
 

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It is, obviously, a J.P. Sauer & Sohn double. It's also full side locks, which is a big plus. I have to ask, is there no other proof marks on the bottom of the barrel, on the flats? Check, if you can. They will tell a lot. As it is a dolls head and not a Greener cross bolt, I suspect it's early.

I need to check on the Schuler. There was a Schuler who was a cartridge developer but I don't recall his first name. If this isn't him, and I don't believe it is, Schuler was merely the retailer.
 
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Discussion Starter #5
It is, obviously, a J.P. Sauer & Sohn double. It's also full side locks, which is a big plus. I have to ask, is there no other proof marks on the bottom of the barrel, on the flats? Check, if you can. They will tell a lot. As it is a dolls head and not a Greener cross bolt, I suspect it's early.

I need to check on the Schuler. There was a Schuler who was a cartridge developer but I don't recall his first name. If this isn't him, and I don't believe it is, Schuler was merely the retailer.
Thanks for your response.

I will take some more pictures and upload anything that looks like something that might help identify it.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
It is, obviously, a J.P. Sauer & Sohn double. It's also full side locks, which is a big plus. I have to ask, is there no other proof marks on the bottom of the barrel, on the flats? Check, if you can. They will tell a lot. As it is a dolls head and not a Greener cross bolt, I suspect it's early.

I need to check on the Schuler. There was a Schuler who was a cartridge developer but I don't recall his first name. If this isn't him, and I don't believe it is, Schuler was merely the retailer.
So I took a few more pictures - There weren't too many more discernable markings so hope they help a bit.

5th picture down, 'E.D Kettner : Coln' would that be the original owner that it was made for or maybe where and whom it was made by?

Either way, appreciate your help in this and let me know if there is anything else I can provide to help with identifying this shotgun.

Thanks

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If you know what you're looking at, those "marks" tell an interesting story. It was proofed in Suhl in April of 1924. It's a 12 bore with 2 1/2 in. chambers, that's what the 12 in a circle means. The crown over the U is a thorough, visual inspection, the crown over the W means the bore is chokes. The degree of choke is never stated, you have to measure it. The block letters "Nitro" indicate it was proofed for smokeless in Suhl. Were it in script, it would have been proofed in Zella-Mehlis.

Now, the water table, very interesting. It not only carries German proofs but, BRITISH proofs as well. Now, it being 12 bore and made in Germany, rather uncommon for 1924, and carrying British proofs tells me it was made in Germany for either a store or individual in England.

No, it was not made for E.D. Kettner. Kettner was a German maker and probably held a DRGM for some minor improvement to the top lever, made the action body, was the retailer or something worthy of having his name on it.. Coln is to Germans what we recognize as Cologne, just like Munich is Munchen. The locks at least were made by J.P. Sauer & Sohn.

In the top picture I can't make out what that says. From the standing breech and the bushed firing pins, it's been used, a lot. It's in very good condition but it's no pristine peach.

Unless I'm missing something, which is possible, I would think $1100 absolute tops with $800-$900 more reasonable. That's an opinion and worth what you paid for it.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
If you know what you're looking at, those "marks" tell an interesting story. It was proofed in Suhl in April of 1924. It's a 12 bore with 2 1/2 in. chambers, that's what the 12 in a circle means. The crown over the U is a thorough, visual inspection, the crown over the W means the bore is chokes. The degree of choke is never stated, you have to measure it. The block letters "Nitro" indicate it was proofed for smokeless in Suhl. Were it in script, it would have been proofed in Zella-Mehlis.

Now, the water table, very interesting. It not only carries German proofs but, BRITISH proofs as well. Now, it being 12 bore and made in Germany, rather uncommon for 1924, and carrying British proofs tells me it was made in Germany for either a store or individual in England.

No, it was not made for E.D. Kettner. Kettner was a German maker and probably held a DRGM for some minor improvement to the top lever, made the action body, was the retailer or something worthy of having his name on it.. Coln is to Germans what we recognize as Cologne, just like Munich is Munchen. The locks at least were made by J.P. Sauer & Sohn.

In the top picture I can't make out what that says. From the standing breech and the bushed firing pins, it's been used, a lot. It's in very good condition but it's no pristine peach.

Unless I'm missing something, which is possible, I would think $1100 absolute tops with $800-$900 more reasonable. That's an opinion and worth what you paid for it.
Thanks very much for the lesson! I also had difficulties deciphering what that first pic says so I shone very bright light on the rifle and it says 'Elektrostahl'.

Would like to hear if that means anything but again, I very much appreciate the history lesson.

Thanks again.
 

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Electro steel. It's the kind of steel the barrels are made from. I suspect "Elektro" has something to do with the manufacturing process. I believe this is the first time I've seen that one.

I need to check myself, I might have jumped the gun. Those two crowns on the water table might not be British.
 

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Electro steel. It's the kind of steel the barrels are made from. I suspect "Elektro" has something to do with the manufacturing process. I believe this is the first time I've seen that one.

I need to check myself, I might have jumped the gun. Those two crowns on the water table might not be British.
Thanks for that.
Look forward to hearing what you discover.
 

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Luke, I haven't forgot, just haven't been in the office today, where my books are.
 

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Ok...Finally fired up the 'puter in the office and checked Wirnsberger's proof mark book. Those two crowns on the water table are what I thought was British Proof marks and I don't believe they are. I can't find them. Did some further checking and at least one of them is merely an identification stamp for J.P. Sauer & Sohn, perhaps both. Soooo....it wasn't proofed in Great Britain, I was wrong about that.. Still, one does not see a lot of German, 12 bore double guns from that era.
 

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Ok...Finally fired up the 'puter in the office and checked Wirnsberger's proof mark book. Those two crowns on the water table are what I thought was British Proof marks and I don't believe they are. I can't find them. Did some further checking and at least one of them is merely an identification stamp for J.P. Sauer & Sohn, perhaps both. Soooo....it wasn't proofed in Great Britain, I was wrong about that.. Still, one does not see a lot of German, 12 bore double guns from that era.
Thanks again for this.
Does your estimated value still stand then based off it being a German 12 bore gun from that era?

Frankly, I told my friend they were better off keeping it in the family, especially if they were only looking at 800-1000 bucks.

Thanks again.
 

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I think so Luke. What you, or your friends could do is browse the various gun auction sites for some comparable's. If I'm off, I don't believe it's by much.

Edit: I don't know why I'm pursuing this shotgun so diligently...I'm 98% a rifle guy. I guess because it's German. Anyway, I went looking and the few I could find that were quite similar to your friends were from $1100 to $1400. They also looked that much better than the one you picture, Luke. I feel as if my original thought was pretty accurate.
 

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I think so Luke. What you, or your friends could do is browse the various gun auction sites for some comparable's. If I'm off, I don't believe it's by much.

Edit: I don't know why I'm pursuing this shotgun so diligently...I'm 98% a rifle guy. I guess because it's German. Anyway, I went looking and the few I could find that were quite similar to your friends were from $1100 to $1400. They also looked that much better than the one you picture, Luke. I feel as if my original thought was pretty accurate.
Thanks again for your research brother.

I will let them know.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
So they still want to sell.....I offered them 800 bucks and told them it stays in my safe i.e. I won't auction it.
 
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