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Discussion Starter #1
22 March 2013
So here's my first posting. I'm hoping that someone will be able to help me with my question.

I'm just starting to load 45 acp rounds. Up to now I've been doing 45 Colt, 40 S&W, 223/5.56mm, and everything has worked very well. This question will get a bit technical but I've done the math and I'm sure about the numbers.

A random sampling of my prepped brass cases verify that all are within specs for the case length. I'm getting a reading of 0.891" long, base to mouth edge.
The inside depth from mouth edge to the inside bottom is 0.700"
The O/D @ the case mouth edge is 0.468"
The I/D @ the case mouth edge is 0.443"
The case wall thickness is 0.011" (X2 for a total brass thickness of 0.022")

Now for the cast lead bullet.
They are Lead Round Nose bullets with a brinell of 18. With a single lube groove (filled). They weigh between 232.8 grains to 233.5 grains.
I bought them on line (Missouri Bullet Company) - I did not cast them.
I'm using CCI # 300 Large Pistol Primers
I'm loading with 4 grains of Hogdon "Titegroup" powder.

After loading some rounds, I had my son try them in his Kimber and he could not get them to load. They would not fit into the breech. He tried loading from the magazine and then individually by hand. Only one round fit properly enough for him to be comfortable in firing it. The round fired as it should have and the case ejected properly. This testing is difficult because he lives in another state and I have to ship the rounds to him via Fed Ex and that's getting costly. I do not have access to the barrel from his Kimber to use as a test gauge.

I picked up a Lee taper crimp die and ran a few more thru the press and asked him to try them again. Still no luck. The rounds would not chamber. So I made an unprimed and unpowdered "Dummy" round and increased the taper to 0.469" @ the mouth of the case. He tried it and again, it would not chamber. He worked the slide a few times and it eventually pushed the round into the breech and caused the slide to jam. He got the slide pulled back and the brass case came right out but the lead bullet was stuck in the barrel. He needed a cleaning rod to push it out of the breech. That would make me believe that the bullet is protruding too far into the barrel and actually lodging in the lands and groves. Having a shorter cartridge that keeps the bullet back just a tad may alleviate this situation, but how much?

I have a new EGW 4 caliber cartridge checker gauge and my rounds fit the 45 acp hole perfectly.

So here's where I'm at.
When I load the bullet into the case I get a C.O.A.L. of 1.270".
That works out to a seating depth of 0.291" below the case mouth. That is 43.36 % of the bullets length. Can I load to get a C.O.A.L. of perhaps 1.260 or maybe 1.255?

I've looked for information about seating depth maximums but so far, no luck. I read on line today that a rule of thumb is to seat the bullet at about the same depth as the diameter of the bullet. Then adjust as needed. Does anyone have any ideas about how to proceed with this situation? Has anyone come up against anything like this before? Just how deep into the case can a bullet as I've described above be seated ? Naturally I do not want to seat the bullet too deeply inside the case because of increased pressures.

I know that the Kimber will handle reloads because he uses Freedom Munitions ammo that he purchased on line. The measurements from those rounds is the same that I have set up. So if they work, shouldn't my rounds work?

This one has me stumped. I tried to ask this question on another forum and got zero responses. When I came across the FirearmsForum.com, I saw that there are a lot of folks participating and a lot of great input. I read many of the forum questions and answers but did not find an answer to this particular situation.

Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Keats
Phoenix,Az. :cool:
 

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Be careful. Seating the bullet deeper in the case will significantly increase the pressure and could cause a dangerous situation.

I would refer to your reloading manual for the correct COAL for the bullet you are using.
 

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When I set my bullet seating die I just put a factory round in the die and screwed the collet down to it and I havent moved it since.That was the quick way but the post above this one is the correct answer.good luck.
 

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The problem with the guage is that it will tell you that a round is more than SAAMI spec (length and diameter) if it doesn't fit, but it will not tell you if it will fit your particular gun. So, first make dummy rounds (no primer or powder) and keep adjusting OAL until you get a length that reliably fits your pistol's chamber (the base of the round should be even with or just below the hood of the barrel). At that point you should have a round that will cycle through your gun. Then check your manuals and if you are shorter than their "recipe" for a 230 gr. LRN, go to the start load (or a little below) and begin working up loads in about 10 round increments (e.g., 10 at x.0 gr, then 10 and x.2 gr, etc) to get a load that will reliably cycle your pistol and achieves whatever your goal for the load might be.

My guess would be that you'll end up closer to 1.25" and I suspect that will be pretty close to the length specified in your manual(s). While I imagine the OAL is your problem, check the crimp too; at the case mouth (measured with the knife edge of the calipers) it should be very near 0.47". Finally, it would be worth contacting Missouri and asking for their recommendation on length and start load for their bullet.
 

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Your OAL is Waaaaay to long.

Hodgdon the makers of Titegroup tested their LRN at 1.200 and their starting load is 4.0gr with a Max of 4.8gr.

Without the gun and the barrel your are just guessing as to what OAL will fit-feed-fire. Forget the math, get the barrel or seat them to Hodgdon specs of 1.200.
 

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..some guns do not like certain shaped bullets..... you might also try a different bullet shape and weight and see if it solves your issue.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Be careful. Seating the bullet deeper in the case will significantly increase the pressure and could cause a dangerous situation.

I would refer to your reloading manual for the correct COAL for the bullet you are using.
Hornady says 1.245 OAL for a 230 gr. RN using Titegroup @ 4.2Gr. up to 5.1gr (max)

I'll shorten the round and see if that's any better. My concern was that nothing in the book said anything about how long the bullet was. I wanted to be very careful about how much of the bullet I stuffed into the case naturally, so I was aiming for a safe depth.
Thank you for the reply.
 

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1) Since your son isn't close . Make up some dummy rounds that start at 1.260;1.255;1.250; ect. mark them accordingly and have your son try to see what works in HIS gun, That load will work in his gun , but may not work in another gun. In fact have him send you his barrel fed X. "This testing is difficult because he lives in another state and I have to ship the rounds to him via Fed Ex and that's getting costly. I do not have access to the barrel from his Kimber to use as a test gauge".
2) start at lowest round in your manual . ( You never stated what manual your using?)
a) don't just use info. off the internet.... "I've looked for information about seating depth maximums but so far, no luck. I read on line today that a rule of thumb is to seat the bullet at about the same depth as the diameter of the bullet. " Not every thing you read on here is true... I'm a FRENCH model by the way"....
b) They will not talk much about how much goes in the casing....more of C.O.A.L.
3) Get another manual and compare the two loads in the differing books
4) Be careful what your doing. " That's YOUR son shooting YOUR reloads. Your son is very brave
5) what do yo mean,"This question will get a bit technical but I've done the math and I'm sure about the numbers." ?????
a) what math did you need to do that wasn't shown in your manual??
6) Its sounds its the ogive of the bullet. Going shorter O.A.L(C.O.A.L.) shouls resolve your problem
a) Your C.O.A.L is too long according to hodgdon. Your showing 1.270"
Hodgdon's showing the following.
Cartridge:
45 ACP
Load Type: Pistol
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads

Bullet Weight (Gr.) Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP Hodgdon Titegroup .451" 1.200" 4.4 744 15,000 CUP 4.8 818 16,700 CUP
230 GR. LRN Hodgdon Titegroup .452" 1.200" 4.0 751 12,500 CUP 4.8 855 17,000 CUP.

There is a lot of knowledge here on TFF. Stick around and just start reading the threads at the beginning of the reloading forum.
http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=19
Some done by Bennett and JLA and some others(don't mean to exclude anyone..Sorry If I missed you). These guys know there stuff and you can learn wonders from them.

Good luck and be safe.

EJK
 

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Hornady says 1.245 OAL for a 230 gr. RN using Titegroup @ 4.2Gr. up to 5.1gr (max)

I'll shorten the round and see if that's any better. My concern was that nothing in the book said anything about how long the bullet was. I wanted to be very careful about how much of the bullet I stuffed into the case naturally, so I was aiming for a safe depth.
Thank you for the reply.
Bullets of the same Lking will be pretty much the same size ..Thats why they have different amounts of powder. Thats why you need to start low and work your way up the chart. Have fun
 

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Discussion Starter #11
To everyone that replied:
Thank you all very much for the imput. I suppose that if I had the 45 that my son owns, this would be a no brainer. He's in Colorado and I'm in Arizona and making dummy rounds to ship to him is a hassle. Maybe my better half will give me the go ahead to take out a mortgage to buy a Kimber for myself :)
Bottom line is that I'll get this load to work like factory ammo or better and hopefully I'll be able to save him a bunch of $$.
Thanks again for all the great tips and clues.

Keats
 

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Discussion Starter #13
If you and your son are sending stuff back and forth, have him send you the barrel of his pistol.

Then do this.

Steve,
That was my ultimate thought. If I could not get the round to chamber the way it should, I was going to have him ship the bbl to me and I'd set the rounds for his barrel.
I just thought that perhaps before I set the bullet too far down inside the case, even with the barrel available, I'd better ask around first. I'd rather be safe than sorry. I love reloading but only if I can do it the right way..
Thanks for the reply.
Keats
 

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Spec is between 1.190 and 1.275. Nominal is 1.232". I would work somewhere around that figure.
 
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