Kentucky and Plains type rifles....old ones!

astute observer
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Posts: 3
(12/5/02 11:34:43 pm)
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Hello everyone! I just discovered this forum, quite by accident! I am a serious collector of percussion sporting and target rifles, particularly those by Upper Midwestern makers(Illinois, Iowa, Wisconsin, Indiana, etc.). I am a published author of both books and magazine articles on the subject and have fairly extensive knowledge. I also have extensive reference material, including some unpublished material.

If anyone has any guns that they would like help identifying, or if anyone wants information on a specific maker, there is a good chance that I can help. C J

Zigzag2
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 4786
(12/6/02 8:13:37 am)
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Hello CJ & astute observer, welcome to The Firearms Forum. It's great to have you with us. We appreciate you offering your expertise.

We have room for a "Smoke-Pole Specialist"

Post as much and as often as you like, and by all means anyplace you like.

Again, it's good to have you with us.



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"Tell the gossipers and liars I will see them in the fire" - Johnny Cash, Let the train whistle blow
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Xracer
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 3126
(12/6/02 10:24:17 am)
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Hi CJ.....Welcome to TFF!

WOW! Thank you for your very kind offer.....we can sure use you around here. Always great to have our own expert in this very difficult area.

We've got some very good guys in metalic cartridge rifles, pistols, and in shotguns......but we can sure use your help here!

If you'd be so kind, would you also check the "Ask The Pros & What's It Worth" and the "Curio & Relics" Fourms? Sometimes people ask questions about bp firearms there.

......and don't feel that you have to limit yourself to just those forums.....your opinions are welcome in all of our other forums (whether you know what you're talking about or not.....that doesn't stop the rest of us! )

GREAT TO HAVE YOU ABOARD!!!

Edited by: Xracer at: 12/6/02 10:31:21 am

shooter45 us
*TFF Chief Of Staff*
Posts: 1985
(12/6/02 10:31:53 am)
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Welcome to the Forum. We need a BP expert around here.

I examined an old Hacker Martin built rifle a few years ago. I know why they called him Hacker.

BTW, the rifle sold for $6,000.

kdub01
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 1535
(12/6/02 2:32:52 pm)
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Yup, Astute -

Always need all the help we can get! As Xracer said - we all voice our opinions, whether we know what we're talking about, or not!

There's a fair to middlin' bunch of charcoal burners haning around the board, here. Even have one o' them new in-lines taking up space in my gun vault. Never got into the old collectables, however, always admired the craftsmanship in them and the way they just naturally hung when shouldered.
"Keep Off The Ridgeline"

astute observer
Member
Posts: 6
(12/6/02 6:28:43 pm)
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Thanks for the warm welcome, everyone! I don't claim to have all the answers.....this is one field in which even the "experts" are still learning! And yes, Shooter.......they didn't call him "Hacker" for nothing! LOL

Tac401
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(12/9/02 11:53:16 am)
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ezSupporter
Re: Kentucky and Plains type rifles....old ones!
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Welcome CJ!

Ditto what the others have said!

Talk at ya soon!

Tac
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Model41SW
Member
Posts: 1
(12/11/02 5:48:05 pm)
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Hello,
In searching for information on black powder shooting I too have just discovered this forum. So........, I am hoping to discover more information about my first black powder rifle that I just purchased a few weeks ago. It is a .36 cal cap and ball full stock rifle that appears very old, but in nice condition. On the side of the lock is engraved "HELWELL". This is the only identifying mark that I can find on it anywhere. Does anyone have any knowledge about this particular name and why it would be on the rifle? My area of collecting is not in the black powder area but I am anxious to learn. Thank you.

Smokin Guns
V.I.P. Member
Posts: 472
(12/11/02 6:05:48 pm)
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and Welcome! to ya Model41SW...I'll wait with ya for an answer, i'm just learnin' myself...

Zigzag2
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 4842
(12/11/02 6:32:29 pm)
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Hello Model41SW, and welcome to The Firearms Forum. Check back often and post alot. We're glad to have you with us.



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"Tell the gossipers and liars I will see them in the fire" - Johnny Cash, Let the train whistle blow
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astute observer
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Posts: 18
(12/11/02 7:03:51 pm)
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H. ELWELL is a fairly common name on percussion locks during the mid-19th Century. This is the maker of the lock, not the entire rifle. Many makers during that period bought locks from those who specialized in locks, rather than making one themselves. No in-depth study of lock makers has thus far been done, but the ELWELL locks are more often seen on Eastern guns. I had one on a rifle by J. C. GRUBB PHILADELPHIA. The rifle maker's name will normally appear on the top barrel flat, and if small or faint can be hidden by dirt or rust. There are however, a significant number of unsigned rifles around. Those guys had no idea that anyone would be collecting their work 150 years later.

TYRVR
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Posts: 211
(12/12/02 1:38:36 am)
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I knew Mr.Martin, he was a self educated man, in rifle building and life, it is very easy to produce slick rifles when someone else makes the barrel, turns and inlets the stock, casts the parts,makes the lock, has a video or DVD detailing each step from A to Z.
Hacker Martin made his tools, his screws, and his stocks-locks and barrels. He had no master builder to apprentice under, no shop equipment such as boring and rifling benches bought from a dealer,just a love of the old guns,and the old ways.
I think it petty of those who would laugh at Mr.Martin or his work. He was a good man and deserving of respect. I also knew Mr.Wallace Gusler, I have heard him credit Mr. Martin several times as an influence on him early in his career.
Perhaps Mr. Gusler's efforts are laughable to you also, but until YOU can do better, don't belittle someones efforts, or call yourself an "Astute Observer".
LTS, I would not have thought you so shallow.

B.T. Rivers
DOWN WITH GRAVITY!

Zigzag2
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 4847
(12/12/02 5:40:18 am)
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Huh... whachu sayin' Ty? (said in my best Gary Coleman voice)



Quote:
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"Tell the gossipers and liars I will see them in the fire" - Johnny Cash, Let the train whistle blow
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tuckerd1
*TFF Staff*
Posts: 1407
(12/12/02 12:38:00 pm)
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TYRVR???

After rereading I see!



Edited by: tuckerd1 at: 12/12/02 12:41:19 pm

Model41SW
Member
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(12/12/02 3:49:06 pm)
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Thank you, Astute!
At the first opportunity I will re-check the name and look for the period that I missed. The top barrel flat will be given close scrutiny for the rifle maker's name. I figured that H(.)ELWELL was the lock maker's name but had no idea as to whom this might be. That would most likely date the rifle into the mid 1800's. Nice to know I have an oldie that is a "goodie". If I can find the rifle maker's name I will let everyone know.
Mike

astute observer
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Posts: 20
(12/13/02 12:04:33 am)
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Well TY, I will certainly admit that Hacker Martin was doing this work at a time when nearly no one else was. I have seen a number of his guns over the years...quite a variation in quality and I'm not sure why. Perhaps some were made while he was still learning, some during his prime, others when he was older and had failing eyesight. You may know more about that than any of us if you knew him. Wallace Gusler is a humble man in spite of his incredible skill. I've not met him personally but am well acquainted with Gary Brumfield, one of the other premier "Colonial Williamsburg" gunsmiths.

As far as my not criticizing Hacker's work until I can do better....well, you might be surprised. But I have the luxury of a Bridgeport and a complete machine shop at my disposal. This is something Hacker never had. Please don't misunderstand me, I do not hold him in contempt by any means. But today there are hundreds of builders across the country whose work is clearly superior. He did the best he could with what he had to work with....the reason his guns fetch the prices they do today.

TYRVR
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(12/15/02 2:45:55 pm)
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The fact that you have assembled period guns should give you a better perspective on what an effort it was to build a rifle or pistol 50-60 years ago. No parts except salvaged items from originals, no one to ask how something was done. Your callous remarks may have been intended as light banter,I don't read minds,so I don't know, but please, don't ridicule those that brought forth the second golden age of American Longrifle building. They deserve respect and thanks.
As to Mr. Martin, I first met him in the 1950's, he was a fixit-all man for a store in Appomattox Va. He and his wife lived in an old farm house near the James River, he repaired and built guns in an outbuilding. His wife was a wonderful Lady and a great cook, I can still remember eating beans with spring onions and cornbread on the porch washed down with spring water, listening to Hacker talking guns. The area around the house was filled with old cars, tractors, mowers and farm equipment of all kinds waiting for Hacker to get around to fixing them. He never had much in the way of luxury, just friends, I don't remember him ever owning a TV or even a radio, I'm not sure there was electricity in that old house. Hacker used old methods for doing everything, he welded on a forge,sharpened tools on a hand turned stone wheel, he had an old lathe that worked from a foot treadle, his drill press was mounted on a post, and you turned a handle to make it work.
He is gone, but most contemporary long rifle builders owe a debt to the Hacker Martins and Wallace Guslers, the Don Davis', the Red Pharris' the Cecil Brooks, and others that built from love, not for self promotion , snobbery or effetism, a common trait found in most modern "Builders".

B.T.Rivers

astute observer
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Posts: 21
(12/16/02 8:21:39 pm)
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I certainly didn't come here intending to cause any trouble or make any enemies. But apparently , I inadvertently did so. Yes TY, it was a thoughtless comment on my part and I now regret making it. When shooter45 us made the remark about Hacker, I jumped on the bandwagon without further thought. I was wrong! If I had been a personal friend of Hacker Martin I am sure that I would have been as offended as you were. I hereby apologize.

I agree to a point that some present day builders are very impressed with themselves....believing they possess "Godlike" qualities. I have met a few of those, but I still don't believe they are by any means a majority. Most of those that I know would tell you that they themselves are still learning...no matter how fine their work. And most of them are more than willing to share ideas and knowledge with anyone who has the interest. Not surprisingly, the really exceptional makers are among the most humble and personable. I know that the "other kind" are out there, and are easy to notice (they make sure that they are) but in truth I like to believe they represent a small minority.

Even the gunmakers of 150 years ago were as diverse in individual skills, techniques, styles, and personalities as those of today. Some of them also thought a little too highly of themselves.

TYRVR
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(12/17/02 11:36:39 am)
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I am not your enemy, nor was I asking for an apology. I was merely making sure that no one faults a friend or belittles his efforts with impunity. Were you my friend, I would take the same action on your behalf. I have done this before, it is the main reason I do not post here,too many people feel it is okay to belittle others and their beliefs.

Tac401
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(12/17/02 7:10:21 pm)
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ezSupporter
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I have done this before, it is the main reason I do not post here,too many people feel it is okay to belittle others and their beliefs.
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That may be your opinion TY, but I strongly disagree!

The majority of folks who post here are not as you say,
99% of the folks that post at this site are some of the
finest people one could have the pleasure of conversing
with and or know.

You are entitled to your opinion, and others are entitled
to theirs.

The proof is in the pudding, this site speaks for itself as
far as how folks are treated here, and in general.


Tac


TFF VMBB Email Tac

TallTLynn
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 5175
(12/17/02 8:52:45 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Tye, some of what happened early on in the development of this site are no longer a problem.

Like any place around we had our growing pains but have settled down to try and make this a place where anyone can come and feel welcome without being attacked.

And yes I know you will defend your friends, feel the same way you do in that regards.


TYRVR
V.I.P. Member
Posts: 214
(12/17/02 9:12:54 pm)
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TLynn and Tac: I do not wish to re-view past grievances, I saw a post that angered me, Mr.Martin was a friend. I responded and one of the people involved replyed, we discussed the matter and as far as I am concerned the matter is closed. I do not wish to start a new round of "He said-I said", My friends are few, I guard them as I would my life.

B.T.Rivers

Tac401
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(12/17/02 11:09:33 pm)
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ezSupporter
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TFF VMBB Email Tac

astute observer
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Posts: 23
(12/18/02 9:52:25 pm)
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The H. ELWELL mentioned as a lockmaker further back in this thread is most likely Henry Elwell, a Birmingham, England maker dating from 1838-1857.

shooter45 us
*TFF Chief Of Staff*
Posts: 2023
(12/23/02 3:51:12 pm)
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AO, I think you nailed that one.

Ty, sorry you took my post the wrong way. I wasn't demeaning Hacker, just making a statement. Remember the rifle sold for $6,000. I wouldn't consider that junk........would you ?????

lovelyrita96
Member
Posts: 1
(1/27/03 12:14:57 pm)
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I've been looking for information on Hacker Maratin rifles on the Internet (without too mich success up to now) and I came across this site.

I have a Hacker Martin rifle that I would like to find out the value and how I might go about selling it.

Any help you can give me would be greatly appreciated.

astute observer
Member
Posts: 34
(1/30/03 5:27:42 pm)
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I have sent Lovelyrita an e-mail reply with a contact that should be of help. Just thought I would let everyone know that I didn't "drop the ball" on this!

CJ

 

astute observer hasn't posted since November 2003. I suspect he isn't hanging around here anymore. Then again, maybe he's just lurking.

Pops