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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi members. New to The Forum however definitely not new to firearms. I was very fortunate to be a recipient of an old drillings from a gentleman in my area who is not too far from passing on. The only information he knows is that the firearm came with his father when he immigrated from Germany. I have tried researching this firearm for many many hours and seems whatever Direction I go in the search nothing really has exactly what I have. I know there are some very well seasoned and extremely knowledgeable people here and I am completely open ears for any kind of knowledge I may learn under the manufacture date and value. The firearm is not going to be resold.
20180218_122354.jpg
 

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It is the retailers name on the rib. I seriously doubt Gustav Will made that drilling. At that time in Germany shops which sold firearms were required to have a Master Gunsmith on staff. While they were certainly capable of making a complete firearm the vast, vast majority were bought "from the trade" in either Suhl or Zella-Mehlis. That piece is a drilling "made for the trade". It appears to be an upper tier piece with that level of engraving and the additions of cocking indicators and the bullet trap. Those were usually "extra's". Wear appears to be commensurate with its age. The receiver was more than likely originally case hardened.

I have seen that style of action before but the most common maker of it evades me. One must also remember that most makers made about all styles of actions so it is entirely possible the actual maker may never be known. I do wish folks would stop perpetuating the myth that the name on the rib of a German firearm is the maker and, the same can be said of British firearms. It's like saying Sears & Roebuck or J.C Higgins made that 22 when it's a Mossberg, Stevens or Marlin with Sears name on it.

The drilling is a Roux action evidently proofed in January of 1905, the 1.05 stamp. 118-35 is usually the mark for the 9.3 X 72R cartridge...of which there was 4 main variations. Three were straight cases and the 4th was the Sauer & Sohn bottleneck case. The crown over U is a view proof and the crown over G is for rifled barrels. I can't make out the numbers in front of the "SchP" but that is the type of powder with which the firearm was proofed and the numbers would be the weight in grams. I believe the SchP stands for Schwarz Pulver which is black powder. In other words the drilling is not Nitro proofed. The Bl or L denotes it was proofed with a lead bullet and whatever the numbers are in front of it are the weight, also in grams. It should calculate to slightly less than 200 grs. The normal bullet was 196 grs. for the 9.3 X 72R cartridges. I believe it being proofed with a lead bullet lends credence to my thought the drilling is not Nitro proofed. It has a Greener type safety and I expect you know the switch on the tang is for selecting the barrel between the rifle and right shotgun barrel in addition to popping up the rear sight, that the front trigger is a single set and the screw is for adjusting sear engagement.

It would help if pictures of all the proofs, particularly those on the shotgun barrels had been shown and of the rifle in its entirety from both sides, top and bottom. Thumbnails often leave much unanswerable.

Other than Voigtlander was an early scope maker in Braunschweig I can't tell you much about the scope other than the adjustment on the scope is probably just for elevation. Windage adjustment was ordinarily in the rear mount. You are indeed fortunate to have both the scope and the claw mount rings.

D.R.G.M. is one of two types of German patents and I'm not well enough versed to know the difference. One was like our patents and offered protection over a period of time and the other I don't believe offered any protection.

That's about all I can tell you without seeing the rest of the proofs and complete pictures of the drilling. Nice piece, congrats on its acquisition. It is rare one sees or learns of a German firearm that immigrated with its owner rather than it being a war trophy. Were it mine the work required to put it back to work would be started. From your description of yourself you probably know to do no more than gently clean it. Don't start hacking around on it and re-finishing the fine old piece.
 

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It is the retailers name on the rib. I seriously doubt Gustav Will made that drilling. At that time in Germany shops which sold firearms were required to have a Master Gunsmith on staff. While they were certainly capable of making a complete firearm the vast, vast majority were bought "from the trade" in either Suhl or Zella-Mehlis. That piece is a drilling "made for the trade". It appears to be an upper tier piece with that level of engraving and the additions of cocking indicators and the bullet trap. Those were usually "extra's". Wear appears to be commensurate with its age. The receiver was more than likely originally case hardened.

I have seen that style of action before but the most common maker of it evades me. One must also remember that most makers made about all styles of actions so it is entirely possible the actual maker may never be known. I do wish folks would stop perpetuating the myth that the name on the rib of a German firearm is the maker and, the same can be said of British firearms. It's like saying Sears & Roebuck or J.C Higgins made that 22 when it's a Mossberg, Stevens or Marlin with Sears name on it.

The drilling is a Roux action evidently proofed in January of 1905, the 1.05 stamp. 118-35 is usually the mark for the 9.3 X 72R cartridge...of which there was 4 main variations. Three were straight cases and the 4th was the Sauer & Sohn bottleneck case. The crown over U is a view proof and the crown over G is for rifled barrels. I can't make out the numbers in front of the "SchP" but that is the type of powder with which the firearm was proofed and the numbers would be the weight in grams. I believe the SchP stands for Schwarz Pulver which is black powder. In other words the drilling is not Nitro proofed. The Bl or L denotes it was proofed with a lead bullet and whatever the numbers are in front of it are the weight, also in grams. It should calculate to slightly less than 200 grs. The normal bullet was 196 grs. for the 9.3 X 72R cartridges. I believe it being proofed with a lead bullet lends credence to my thought the drilling is not Nitro proofed. It has a Greener type safety and I expect you know the switch on the tang is for selecting the barrel between the rifle and right shotgun barrel in addition to popping up the rear sight, that the front trigger is a single set and the screw is for adjusting sear engagement.

It would help if pictures of all the proofs, particularly those on the shotgun barrels had been shown and of the rifle in its entirety from both sides, top and bottom. Thumbnails often leave much unanswerable.

Other than Voigtlander was an early scope maker in Braunschweig I can't tell you much about the scope other than the adjustment on the scope is probably just for elevation. Windage adjustment was ordinarily in the rear mount. You are indeed fortunate to have both the scope and the claw mount rings.

D.R.G.M. is one of two types of German patents and I'm not well enough versed to know the difference. One was like our patents and offered protection over a period of time and the other I don't believe offered any protection.

That's about all I can tell you without seeing the rest of the proofs and complete pictures of the drilling. Nice piece, congrats on its acquisition. It is rare one sees or learns of a German firearm that immigrated with its owner rather than it being a war trophy. Were it mine the work required to put it back to work would be started. From your description of yourself you probably know to do no more than gently clean it. Don't start hacking around on it and re-finishing the fine old piece.
Sharps4590, I thoroughly read your message and I greatly appreciate the time that you took out of your day for the information. I definitely have no desire to clean up or alter this firearm in any way other than cleaning the barrels and putting a conservative amount of oil on the metals. I will try to add a couple more full-size pictures to see if they will help in any additional information. Thank you greatly for your time and knowledge as well as a future thank you to members that may include more information
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Is there any knowledge on what the brass sleeve is that goes in through the top of the stock? The purpose for this? Also with the name on the top of the rib I think it may be silver inlaid. Could I be mistaken? Any idea what would be a conservative amount to have this insured for? Thanks again
 

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The hole in the top of the stock was most likely for an additional piece of wood to raise your cheek rest in order to use the scope effectively. The gun is an underlever type and not worth as much as newer top lever guns. The quality is good but not the best. Assuming the bores are good and there are no defects it is worth 800 to 1000. The scope has an internal adjustment for elevation and ring mounted adjuster for windage. Overall a very nice gun.
 

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Ah-ha, I stand corrected, the firearm is Nitro proofed. On the left barrel, next to the powder and bullet weight and type is the crown over N for Nitro proof. That sort of surprises me given the size of the firing pins. Speaking of the firing pins, the left one obviously has either a broken or very tired retracting spring. They are easily replaced with a simple ink pen spring. Just experiment to get the correct length by cutting off coils until it's correct. The crown over W on the shotgun barrel denotes it is choked but what degree is never indicated and, the circled 16 I expected to see, for the era, means it is chambered for the 2 1/2 in. hull. The crown over S is simply the proof mark for a shotgun barrel.

OG is correct about the sleeved hole in the top of the comb. I am going to differ with OG regarding its value. Honestly, in my experience with old German drillings, I would double his figures. While it's obvious the piece is not pristine it would benefit from a good, gentle cleaning and I believe that would greatly enhance its appearance, thus value. The other thing is you have the scope and rings. The scope might not add much, unless you have priced vintage German scopes on evil bay or anyplace else you can find one and, depending on who made it. To have the claw mount rings duplicated would cost about OG's estimate of the value for the drilling. My experience in fooling with those old German firearms is if you can find a drilling like that, with scope and rings, for 800 to 1000 you better buy all you can if, as OG mentioned, it is in decent condition. About 3 months ago I worked a trade on one not too dissimilar for what amounted to $1900 and the guy was tickled to get it for that.

Edit: I have to stand corrected again. The numbers beneath the type of powder the gun was proofed with are the weight of the shot charge in grams, not the weight of the rifle bullet. I apologize for the confusion. Given the appearance of the muzzles and that the checkering of the forearm is still mostly intact I don't believe that piece saw much use after the gentleman immigrated. On many of those the checkering on the forearm is worn smooth from carrying while the checkering at the wrist remains quite nice. I have several in exactly that kind of condition.
 
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The hole in the top of the stock was most likely for an additional piece of wood to raise your cheek rest in order to use the scope effectively. The gun is an underlever type and not worth as much as newer top lever guns. The quality is good but not the best. Assuming the bores are good and there are no defects it is worth 800 to 1000. The scope has an internal adjustment for elevation and ring mounted adjuster for windage. Overall a very nice gun.
Old Guns, thank you for your reply. Greatly appreciated.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Ah-ha, I stand corrected, the firearm is Nitro proofed. On the left barrel, next to the powder and bullet weight and type is the crown over N for Nitro proof. That sort of surprises me given the size of the firing pins. Speaking of the firing pins, the left one obviously has either a broken or very tired retracting spring. They are easily replaced with a simple ink pen spring. Just experiment to get the correct length by cutting off coils until it's correct. The crown over W on the shotgun barrel denotes it is choked but what degree is never indicated and, the circled 16 I expected to see, for the era, means it is chambered for the 2 1/2 in. hull. The crown over S is simply the proof mark for a shotgun barrel.

OG is correct about the sleeved hole in the top of the comb. I am going to differ with OG regarding its value. Honestly, in my experience with old German drillings, I would double his figures. While it's obvious the piece is not pristine it would benefit from a good, gentle cleaning and I believe that would greatly enhance its appearance, thus value. The other thing is you have the scope and rings. The scope might not add much, unless you have priced vintage German scopes on evil bay or anyplace else you can find one and, depending on who made it. To have the claw mount rings duplicated would cost about OG's estimate of the value for the drilling. My experience in fooling with those old German firearms is if you can find a drilling like that, with scope and rings, for 800 to 1000 you better buy all you can if, as OG mentioned, it is in decent condition. About 3 months ago I worked a trade on one not too dissimilar for what amounted to $1900 and the guy was tickled to get it for that.

Edit: I have to stand corrected again. The numbers beneath the type of powder the gun was proofed with are the weight of the shot charge in grams, not the weight of the rifle bullet. I apologize for the confusion. Given the appearance of the muzzles and that the checkering of the forearm is still mostly intact I don't believe that piece saw much use after the gentleman immigrated. On many of those the checkering on the forearm is worn smooth from carrying while the checkering at the wrist remains quite nice. I have several in exactly that kind of condition.
Sharps4590, I wish I truly would have started asking on here sooner than later. I have learned more on this firearm then the hours I have tried researching on the internet machine. I thank everyone for their knowledge on this era of firearm. It is truly appreciated to have people give others information on such a lost generation of firearm building.
 

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Glad to help. I do have a deep and abiding fondness for old German firearms and the cartridges they are chambered for. Given I've had to correct myself twice I hope the rest of the info I posted is right!!! Eh, it should be. I didn't see the crown over N in your first series of pictures and the shot charge rather than the rifle bullet....fingers got in front of my feeble mind.

I did send you a PM with some links.
 
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Sharps is correct on the retailer's mark.
The point I was trying to make was that "Krupp Stahl" was not the maker.
 

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Point taken. Bill, isn't amazing how many ads a fella sees that say "Krupp Stahl Drilling" or "Krupp Stahl" some other German firearm?
 
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