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Krupp Stahl Triple Barrell

13K views 13 replies 9 participants last post by  Minmaker 
#1 ·
I inherited this shotgun/rifle combo from my granddad who was one of Patton's "Ghosts" during WWII. It's amazing and I will keep it on my wall forever.
I do know a little bit about it through research, but I would also like any more info you guys may have...
It is a 16ga double barrell and with a 9.3x72r rifle barrel...

What is the history of this gun? I know it's German, but what year and where was it built would be nice..

What would this gun be worth to a collector??

Can I shoot todays ammo with it?

What should I clean it with?
Is it easy to blue the gun?? (I am very experienced in the garage with building and repairing stuff)

Could I lightly sand and refinish the stocks wood or keep them as they are??
 

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#2 ·
Hello and welcome. I can't really help with info on but I will say that refinishing a stock and reblueing the steel will often degrade the value of a firearm. The real pros will be along shorty.
 
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#3 ·
Is it easy to blue the gun?? (I am very experienced in the garage with building and repairing stuff)

Could I lightly sand and refinish the stocks wood or keep them as they are??
STOOOOOOOP. Do not sand scrub or do anything to the gun until one of our members, Sharps4590 or another of our experts chime in. It wouldn't just reduce the value a little but will kill all collector value. Glad you're asking questions.
 
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#4 ·
What Firpo said.
If you want to clean the the foregrip and stock up, do NOT sand or refinish, but rather use what I am recommending, called Renaissance Micro-Crystalline Wax.
It is a micro- cyrstalline wax that is both a cleaner and polish. I have been told by good sources that this is what the NRA curators use. It's expensive but the results are stunning.

Any old firearm under consideration of firing should be inspected by a qualified and licensed gun smith before attempting to shoot.
 
#5 · (Edited)
FWIW, I found this:

9.3 x 72R is an older European cartridge designed specifically for hunters. The 9.3 x 72mm rimmed round is quite large by both current rifle projectile standards and by case length, but the round is not exceptionally powerful. In fact, it was actually more or less considered a medium bore rifle when it was designed. The 9.3 x 72R topped with 193 grain projectile can reach upwards of 1,900 feet per second.

You'll most commonly find 9.3 x 72R ammo in three barreled hunting instruments known as drillings. A drilling is most commonly a combination gun featuring two shotgun barrels atop a rifle barrel. These weapons were used exclusively for hunting and were most commonly found in Europe. 9.3x72R ammunition is capable of taking most all game across Europe including bear, large deer, and hogs. When combined with a set of 16 gauge barrels the drilling was probably the most versatile hunting weapon of its day.
The acronym D.R.G.M. with or without punctuation stands for Deutsches Reichsgebrauchsmuster, meaning that the design or function of an item was officially registered inside all of the Germany states and not only locally registered as it was the case before the introduction of centralized registration. Note that many people quote this acronym as standing for Deutsches Reich Gebrauchsmuster, which is grammatically wrong and also ommits the letter 's' after Reich. This results in shifting the weight of pronounciation on 'Deutsches Reich' alone, but this acronym has nothing to do with the Third Reich as many sellers want to imply so to catch the attention of certain 'collectors'.

D.R.G.M. registration was introduced 1891 and if you are dating items you should hold in mind that even during Allied occupation up until 1949, registration procedures remained untouched and still used the D.R.G.M. registration documents, which of course explains why D.R.G.M. marks can be found on products actually manufactured up until 1952 as the registration itself was valid for three years. As from the end of October 1952, all registrations were definately marked with 'Deutsches Bundesgebrauchsmuster' (D.B.G.M.) or simply with 'Gebrauchsmuster' or 'Gebrauchsmusterschutz', see below.

As already noted, the D.R.G.M. registration offered a basic copyright protection for the duration of three years and included the right to indicate the item status by marking the registered items with the D.R.G.M. acronym. It was left to the registration owner to include the registration number as the D.R.G.M. marking alone was the element with legal character. The actual result of such a registration (the form of protection) was called Gebrauchsmusterschutz.

D.R.G.M. registered products were protected either for their way of intended use or design only and this did not include patent protection. Patent rights were secured by applying for a Deutsches Reichspatent (D.R.P.), so even if many people use the term 'D.R.G.M-Patent' it is factually wrong. Reason for this mix-up was that the D.R.G.M. registration in colloquial language was also known as 'kleines Reichspatent' which literally stands for 'small Imperial patent' but actually was meant as 'poor people's patent' and made fun of the fact that many manufacturers could not afford the fees needed to register a full patent. One should take into count that German patent registration fees (as was openly criticized during the year 1906) where two and a half times higher than in England - and 36 (!!!) times higher than in the US.
 
#6 ·
How much history do you want on drillings? The where is obviously Suhl. Evidently it was retailed in Coln...Cologne to Americans. The year, I'll need good, readable pictures of all the proof marks. I can't make out but precious little of the ones pictured. Depending on when it was made will depend on what kind of proofs are on the bottom of the barrels. According to what Mak found it seems obvious it post dates 1891. It appears to be from around WWI, give or take a few years either way but could be some later. By whom may never be able to be known. Without better pictures how much it's worth would be a guess. If you start re-finishing anything, metal, wood, anything, whatever it might be worth then will be immediately cut by approximately 50% so leave it alone. Frankly I think the old piece looks great just like it is although it does need the crud cleaned off, NOT THE FINISH OR PATINA!!! I'm not familiar with the cleaner Mak mentioned but imagine it's top shelf. 4/0 steel wool or brass wool works good to gently clean it then boiled linseed oil applied SPARINGLY to the wood should give it a decent sheen.

Reference bluing, which shouldn't even be considered. German firearms were rust blued. Cold blue is fine for touch up but usually looks like warmed over death if used to blue an entire firearm. If you have it hot blued after the American fashion the barrels will come apart as the salts will eat the old soft solder.

Can you fire it with modern ammo. Maybe, it depends. First, have it checked by a gunsmith at least somewhat familiar with old German firearms or if you're confident in your abilities asses it yourself. Obvious delaminations of the barrels/ribs either relegate it to wall hanger status or a candidate to send to New England Custom Guns for re-soldering of the ribs. Second, regardless of what the proof marks may say or what you've been told you need to make a chamber cast of the rifle chamber and have the shotgun chambers checked for length. Unless the shotgun chambers have been lengthened they will be 2 1/2 inch, not for 2 3/4 shells. If the chamber cast of the rifle barrel indicates it is indeed a 9.3 X 72R now you get to determine which one. There was 3 major iterations of the cartridge and another by the same name of 9.3 X 72R Sauer & Sohn. They are not differentiated by the proof marks. The S&S cartridge is not interchangeable with any. The other 3 may or may not interchange. Then there are variations by individual gunsmiths of the time which may or may not interchange. You also need to slug the rifle bore to determine what the groove diameter is. 9.3 is .366 however, some 9.3's are as tight as .358 and hit all dimensions in between. You may ask me how I know the above.

Generally the old drilling appears to have been a quality piece...which is pretty much the norm for drillings from that era....or any era. They weren't and aren't inexpensive new. Of the 4 I own 2 are pre-WWI one of which predates Nitro proof and the 1893 proof law. The other is approximately 1905 and the other two are from "between the wars". I hunt with and shoot them all. If yours checks out ok you can shoot it but you may need a few advanced handloading skills to do so. For the sake of all that is holy do not re-chamber the barrels, alter the ammo.
 
#7 ·
I wasn't planning to do anything to it until I got some advice.. I have other guns and clean them, but I won't touch this one.

As for cleaning off the dust on it, will a fine brush and some household cleaning such as windex work?

As I said, I won't touch it anytime soon.. i just want to know all about it first..
 
#9 ·
Hoppe's #9 and gentle use of 4/0 steel or brass wool should clean everything on the outside as good as it needs to be cleaned. You didn't mention it but what is the condition of the bores? Some are absolutely excellent and some others look like a rutted up dirt road.
 
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#11 · (Edited)
When the right barrel shows "Cöln-Suhl", the left barrel must show "Eduard Kettner", its obligatory.
Eduard Kettner was a company for manufacturing and trading with all common articles for hunting, foundet 1884 in Köln, Germany. Later he has bought a factory for hunting arms in Suhl and your "Drilling" is made in Suhl.
The bottom shows D.R.G.M. 169054, that means "Deutsches Reichs Gebrauchs Muster, that's like a patent and under the no. 169054 it's discribed, regarding to the special lock for this gun, invented by Ernst Kerner in 1902.
9716 is the serial no., seperate cocking for the rifle barrel on the pistol grip, safety-catch on the left side of pistol grip, basis for scope mount:SEM
The gun must be proofed after 1912, of course "NITRO" for proofed by smokeless powder was used after 1912.

Can I shoot todays ammo with it?
Yes, you can do it, if you use ammo like in the attached file the last 3 lines.

What should I clean it with?
Only WD-40 or similar and a soft cloth otherwise you will damage this nice old gun.
The ammo for your shotgun barrels:

Material property Metal
 

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#12 ·
Thanks on the tip Big Mac. I might also suggest New Life Products. We had some problems with antique furniture and a dealer doing some restoration recommended these products. Using the New Life products it was possible to clean up an old National Match 03 Springfield that had been nicely restocked. The stock was black including carving and checkering. It turned out that the wood had a coat of dried Cosmoline. This is a work in progress but the fancy grain is coming out. Don't fiddle with the metal on your drilling other than gentle cleaning with products that will do no harm as suggested.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Additional it's possible that the gun was manufactured after this discribed patent of 1902 in the earliest years of 20th century of course this underlever action was very seldom. In this time the caliber 9,3x72 was made by different gunsmith with different chamber diameters, like sharps4590 discribe.
The R under crown as proof shows that the gun has a second proof after maintenance in important parts. That may be the changing of chamber to 9,3x72R and was proofed again after 1912 for NITRO.
 
#14 ·
Dis-assembling a double gun can be intimidating, a Drilling, even more so. First thing you will need is a set of the proper screwdrivers. Alot of German doubles have screws with very narrow slits. Brownells sells a set of what they call "thin bits" that fit a magnetic driver. Even then, they can sometimes be very difficult to remove. If you have never smithed a double, I wouldn't recommend it.
 
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