mckheean
Member
Posts: 34
(9/23/02 8:01:55 am)
Reply | Edit | Del All Lepever Double
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just purchased a 28 in Double barrel shotgun from a friend that is marked Lepever Arms Co. Is this supposed to be Lefever Arms Co. or am I looking wrong because of the rust.What else can I look for to identify this shotgun?Thanks Benny
AntiqueDr
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 3116
(9/23/02 9:47:06 am)
Reply | Edit | De
Re: Lepever Double
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Lepever' would be a cruel joke. What other markings are on the shotgun, serial number, and what markings are on the water table?
We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
www.apaxenterprises.com
Master Dealer for Kimber, Wilson Combat and Dan Wesson
dksdks
Member
Posts: 16
(9/23/02 10:18:49 am)
Reply | Edit | Del marks
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check for any marks on the monoblock, the back end of the barells and the reciever, where the barells fit into the rest of the gun. These dont usually get rusty.
mckheean
Member
Posts: 35
(9/23/02 2:05:59 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Lefever
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After cleaning the shotgun today I found a serial no.43079,there is a Patent date on the triger guard that reads patent date 1872 ,78,80,85,86,87.The forarm is checkered and the stock is pistol grip without checkering.The end plate has the Lefever emblem on it.Any help on the grade or price would be helpful. Benny
AntiqueDr
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 3118
(9/24/02 6:13:32 am)
Reply | Edit | Del
Re: Lefever
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds like one of the plainer grade Lefevers. Impossible to determine grade without knowing the markings on the water table. Even so, with all this talk of rust I am imagining the condition to be fairly poor so value will be low.
We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
www.apaxenterprises.com
Master Dealer for Kimber, Wilson Combat and Dan Wesson
mckheean
Member
Posts: 36
(9/24/02 7:17:57 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Lefever
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The gun looks great since it was cleaned,light surface rust on one side of the receiver and on the barrel above the foretip.I would rate the gun a 70%.I am new to shotguns just what is the water table? Thanks for all the help. Benny
AntiqueDr
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 3119
(9/24/02 8:03:11 am)
Reply | Edit | Del
Re: Lefever
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Open the action, better yet, remove the barrels from the receiver. Look on the flats where the barrels and receivers join.
mckheean
Member
Posts: 37
(9/24/02 4:38:20 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Lefever
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I took the barrel off the receiver and all that was there was the serial no.43079 which dates the Lefever at 1902 acording to a site I found on the web,There was also the letter I.How do you tell if it is a Damarcus barrel or regular barrel? Benny
warpig883
*TFF Staff*
Posts: 4880
(10/1/02 11:22:55 am)
Reply | Edit | Del
Re: Lefever
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Damascus will have patterns in the steel. They really look nice and no two are the same. If it is damascus it is not safe to shoot with modern ammo.
also known as a "laminated" or "twist" barrel. Made of two or more rods or wires of iron and steel, called skelp, welded together, then rolled to form a ribbon and twisted about a mandrel with the abutting edges of the ribbon welded together. After withdrawing the mandrel the welded tube was finished inside and out to form the finished barrel. This method of making gun barrels appears to have started in the 16th century in the Near East.
warpig883
*TFF Staff*
Posts: 4881
(10/1/02 12:06:33 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del
Re: Lefever
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you can really see the damascus pattern here
mckheean
Member
Posts: 38
(10/2/02 7:15:35 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Lefever
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks warpig883 and Antique Doc.Mine does not look like a Damarcus barrel.
AntiqueDr
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 3137
(10/2/02 9:36:07 am)
Reply | Edit | Del
Re: Lefever
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's draw a distinction here. The term "Damascus" steel is very commonly used to describe any barrels not made of 'fluid' steel. This has come to include, erroneously, the lower grades of twist-steel barrels offerred on inexpensive shotguns in the late 1800's.
Fine Damascus barrels such as produced by the great American shotgun companies like Parker, LC Smith, Fox and Lefever as well as the great European gunmakers like Westley Richards, Purdey and Bonehill CAN and often ARE proofed for use with smokeless powder (Nitro-Proof). With appropriate loadings, they shoot just as well as any modern barrels. In their day, fine Damascus was considered superior to fluid steel although metallurgy still had a long way to come.
warpig883
*TFF Staff*
Posts: 4904
(10/2/02 9:53:32 am)
Reply | Edit | Del
Re: Lefever
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Right AD. It is the lower grades of twist steel that are responsible for the bad rap the term damascus gets for bowing up fingers.
I was just reading an article about a set of damascus barrels that were double proofed and held up fine. At one time the quality damascus barrel was stronger than a steel barrel. That was one of the reasons they were built that way. The quality of the hard and soft wires when welded together correctly tended to make a very strong barrel.
The problem with damascus barrels is that if when they were made the wires were all welded together with hammer and forge. If just one tiny spot was not welded completly what happens is that as that barrel gets old that tiny spot will corrode causing a weak spot that might blow up.
The only way to be sure about this is have them inspected by magnaflux,eddy current or other type of nondestructive inspection. There are gunsmiths who specialize in damascus barrel guns and proof houses in England where they can be sent if be reproffed and inspected ifthey are a collectible and expensive set of barrels.
Not all barrells marked NITRO are safe to shoot with smokeless powders. Any twist steel or damascus barrel should be inspected by a competent gunsmith before firing only with the shells for which it was designed.
The modern powders used generate very high high presure. With smokeless powder even a factory light trap load or a reloaded one can have dangerously high pressure for a twist steel barrel that is in excellent condition.
Here are some links to damascus info that I have had on my computer wasting away.
damascus.free.fr/f_damas/.../liege.htm
pub44.ezboard.com/bdamasc...discussion
pub49.ezboard.com/fthefir...=336.topic
www.gunshop.com/gunther1.htm
www.gunshop.com/cgi-bin/u...=forum&f=1
This last one if for a website that specializes in fine shotguns new and old. They have some members who know more about shotgunning and old shotguns than most people will ever know.
Member
Posts: 34
(9/23/02 8:01:55 am)
Reply | Edit | Del All Lepever Double
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just purchased a 28 in Double barrel shotgun from a friend that is marked Lepever Arms Co. Is this supposed to be Lefever Arms Co. or am I looking wrong because of the rust.What else can I look for to identify this shotgun?Thanks Benny
AntiqueDr
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 3116
(9/23/02 9:47:06 am)
Reply | Edit | De
Re: Lepever Double
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Lepever' would be a cruel joke. What other markings are on the shotgun, serial number, and what markings are on the water table?
We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
www.apaxenterprises.com
Master Dealer for Kimber, Wilson Combat and Dan Wesson
dksdks
Member
Posts: 16
(9/23/02 10:18:49 am)
Reply | Edit | Del marks
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check for any marks on the monoblock, the back end of the barells and the reciever, where the barells fit into the rest of the gun. These dont usually get rusty.
mckheean
Member
Posts: 35
(9/23/02 2:05:59 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Lefever
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After cleaning the shotgun today I found a serial no.43079,there is a Patent date on the triger guard that reads patent date 1872 ,78,80,85,86,87.The forarm is checkered and the stock is pistol grip without checkering.The end plate has the Lefever emblem on it.Any help on the grade or price would be helpful. Benny
AntiqueDr
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 3118
(9/24/02 6:13:32 am)
Reply | Edit | Del
Re: Lefever
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds like one of the plainer grade Lefevers. Impossible to determine grade without knowing the markings on the water table. Even so, with all this talk of rust I am imagining the condition to be fairly poor so value will be low.
We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
www.apaxenterprises.com
Master Dealer for Kimber, Wilson Combat and Dan Wesson
mckheean
Member
Posts: 36
(9/24/02 7:17:57 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Lefever
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The gun looks great since it was cleaned,light surface rust on one side of the receiver and on the barrel above the foretip.I would rate the gun a 70%.I am new to shotguns just what is the water table? Thanks for all the help. Benny
AntiqueDr
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 3119
(9/24/02 8:03:11 am)
Reply | Edit | Del
Re: Lefever
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Open the action, better yet, remove the barrels from the receiver. Look on the flats where the barrels and receivers join.
mckheean
Member
Posts: 37
(9/24/02 4:38:20 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Lefever
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I took the barrel off the receiver and all that was there was the serial no.43079 which dates the Lefever at 1902 acording to a site I found on the web,There was also the letter I.How do you tell if it is a Damarcus barrel or regular barrel? Benny
warpig883
*TFF Staff*
Posts: 4880
(10/1/02 11:22:55 am)
Reply | Edit | Del
Re: Lefever
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Damascus will have patterns in the steel. They really look nice and no two are the same. If it is damascus it is not safe to shoot with modern ammo.
also known as a "laminated" or "twist" barrel. Made of two or more rods or wires of iron and steel, called skelp, welded together, then rolled to form a ribbon and twisted about a mandrel with the abutting edges of the ribbon welded together. After withdrawing the mandrel the welded tube was finished inside and out to form the finished barrel. This method of making gun barrels appears to have started in the 16th century in the Near East.
warpig883
*TFF Staff*
Posts: 4881
(10/1/02 12:06:33 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del
Re: Lefever
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you can really see the damascus pattern here
mckheean
Member
Posts: 38
(10/2/02 7:15:35 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Lefever
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks warpig883 and Antique Doc.Mine does not look like a Damarcus barrel.
AntiqueDr
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 3137
(10/2/02 9:36:07 am)
Reply | Edit | Del
Re: Lefever
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's draw a distinction here. The term "Damascus" steel is very commonly used to describe any barrels not made of 'fluid' steel. This has come to include, erroneously, the lower grades of twist-steel barrels offerred on inexpensive shotguns in the late 1800's.
Fine Damascus barrels such as produced by the great American shotgun companies like Parker, LC Smith, Fox and Lefever as well as the great European gunmakers like Westley Richards, Purdey and Bonehill CAN and often ARE proofed for use with smokeless powder (Nitro-Proof). With appropriate loadings, they shoot just as well as any modern barrels. In their day, fine Damascus was considered superior to fluid steel although metallurgy still had a long way to come.
warpig883
*TFF Staff*
Posts: 4904
(10/2/02 9:53:32 am)
Reply | Edit | Del
Re: Lefever
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Right AD. It is the lower grades of twist steel that are responsible for the bad rap the term damascus gets for bowing up fingers.
I was just reading an article about a set of damascus barrels that were double proofed and held up fine. At one time the quality damascus barrel was stronger than a steel barrel. That was one of the reasons they were built that way. The quality of the hard and soft wires when welded together correctly tended to make a very strong barrel.
The problem with damascus barrels is that if when they were made the wires were all welded together with hammer and forge. If just one tiny spot was not welded completly what happens is that as that barrel gets old that tiny spot will corrode causing a weak spot that might blow up.
The only way to be sure about this is have them inspected by magnaflux,eddy current or other type of nondestructive inspection. There are gunsmiths who specialize in damascus barrel guns and proof houses in England where they can be sent if be reproffed and inspected ifthey are a collectible and expensive set of barrels.
Not all barrells marked NITRO are safe to shoot with smokeless powders. Any twist steel or damascus barrel should be inspected by a competent gunsmith before firing only with the shells for which it was designed.
The modern powders used generate very high high presure. With smokeless powder even a factory light trap load or a reloaded one can have dangerously high pressure for a twist steel barrel that is in excellent condition.
Here are some links to damascus info that I have had on my computer wasting away.
damascus.free.fr/f_damas/.../liege.htm
pub44.ezboard.com/bdamasc...discussion
pub49.ezboard.com/fthefir...=336.topic
www.gunshop.com/gunther1.htm
www.gunshop.com/cgi-bin/u...=forum&f=1
This last one if for a website that specializes in fine shotguns new and old. They have some members who know more about shotgunning and old shotguns than most people will ever know.