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Looking for information about Oesterr Waffenfabr Ges. Steyr rifle

5K views 20 replies 5 participants last post by  Marblekonus 
#1 ·
I am a genealogist and a client has asked me to find out the origin and meanings of the markings on the butt of this rifle. I have attached the photos he sent me. This is all that I know about this rifle. I have some ideas but I am hoping that someone with more experience in this sort of thing can point me in the right direction.
 

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#2 ·
That should be nothing more than the talley of particular heads of game taken with the rifle. I can't make out well enough the.....code....the previous owner used as what letter/abbreviation means what game. It appears the "double tacks" are a group of 10. That rifle shot a lot of game!!!!! You see it more commonly on older German/Austrian firearms than a Mannlicher/Schoenauer. Very, very interesting and I for one am pleased you posted it. I believe the 9 points over the crown denote a very minor member of royalty, very minor as in barely counts. Generally the lower the number of points, for lack of the proper word, the higher up in importance the individual.

Which M/S is it? It could be 1903, '05, '08 or '10.
 
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#3 ·
Thank you! I suspected something like that. The abbreviations are:
H
Th.u.K
Db
G.u.K
Rb
G
S
U

with the TH.u.K and S being the most plentiful and the U the rarity.

So it looks like my next task is to pull out the German-English dictionary and see what game animals would match those abbreviations.

Would you guess I am looking for small game, waterfowl, etc. or larger game?

And I will see what I can dig up on lesser nobility with the initials "NL"

Again, thank you!
 
#4 · (Edited)
Boy Kate....I don't know. It wouldn't be small game or waterfowl, not with a rifle like the M/S, I wouldn't think. Looking at "European Hunter" by Dr. S. Lloyd Newberry I would check for chamois, Roe deer, also known as "reh" in Germany & Austria, wild boar, Red stag, maybe the European brown bear, perhaps capercallie, a turkey sized grouse,.....and who knows where and what else the individual may have hunted. My German is so poor I'm afraid I'm of precious little help....and who knows how the hunter may have "coded" his game animals.

The "H" may be for "Hirsch" and I think that's a deer of some kind.

I believe I should have said "nobility" rather than "royalty". There is a difference and you are correct.

May I ask again which model the rifle is, 1903, etc.?

Ok, I believe I understand something I didn't when I first posted. The marks you show on the piece of paper, I assume those to be stampings, proof marks, you found on the barrel or other part of the rifle? If so, the NPv and the E inside the V indicate the rifle was proofed in Vienna. The 421 could be the date code and would mean the rifle was proofed in April of 1921. The 7,9 could be the caliber which would mean an 8 X 56 Mannlicher/Schoenauer cartridge and would make the rifle a model of 1908. The rest of the marks I can't say without seeing them on the rifle. They could be the weight and type of bullet along with perhaps the powder type and weight for which the rifle was proofed.
 
#5 ·
Boy Kate....I don't know. It wouldn't be small game or waterfowl, not with a rifle like the M/S, I wouldn't think. Looking at "European Hunter" by Dr. S. Lloyd Newberry I would check for chamois, Roe deer, also known as "reh" in Germany & Austria, wild boar, Red stag, maybe the European brown bear, perhaps capercallie, a turkey sized grouse,.....and who knows where and what else the individual may have hunted. My German is so poor I'm afraid I'm of precious little help....and who knows how the hunter may have "coded" his game animals.

The "H" may be for "Hirsch" and I think that's a deer of some kind.

I believe I should have said "nobility" rather than "royalty". There is a difference and you are correct.

May I ask again which model the rifle is, 1903, etc.?
Okay, larger to really big European game it is! (and then after writing that I have to wonder if the original owner would have taken this on a trip to Africa......)

I am thinking that if I can figure out the "U" that might help. He only got one of those, so I suspect that was a rare item for a hunter to shoot.

Unfortunately, I don't know which model it is; I have asked the client for more information, but I don't think he knows anything else about the rifle beyond the little bit that I originally posted. Would there be a way to determine that on the rifle itself? If so, I can ask him to check.

(Sorry I am so ignorant - the only rifles I know anything about are the reproduction Enfields we use for Civil War reenacting)
 
#6 ·
If the figures you show on the piece of paper came from the rifle I believe I have the model, 1908, which would also denote the cartridge. Also, possibly the date of proof. If you have access to the rifle good pictures of the proof marks on the rifle will tell a lot. I simply can't decipher the ones I didn't mention. Fair warning, my computer skills are about equal to my German so they'll need to be clear for this old man....lol!

It was not uncommon for Austrians and Germans, especially of nobility, to hunt Africa between the wars so there may be some credibility to what you mention. Many no doubt had family in South Africa and German East Africa. From about 1860 until the beginning of WWII that entire continent was in a state of flux. And who knows....the owner may have lived in Africa and those are mostly abbreviations for African game. That is unless the current owner has information otherwise. It is certainly a juicy mystery!!!!!
 
#9 ·
Boy Kate....I don't know. It wouldn't be small game or waterfowl, not with a rifle like the M/S, I wouldn't think. Looking at "European Hunter" by Dr. S. Lloyd Newberry I would check for chamois, Roe deer, also known as "reh" in Germany & Austria, wild boar, Red stag, maybe the European brown bear, perhaps capercallie, a turkey sized grouse,.....and who knows where and what else the individual may have hunted. My German is so poor I'm afraid I'm of precious little help....and who knows how the hunter may have "coded" his game animals.

The "H" may be for "Hirsch" and I think that's a deer of some kind.

I believe I should have said "nobility" rather than "royalty". There is a difference and you are correct.

May I ask again which model the rifle is, 1903, etc.?

Ok, I believe I understand something I didn't when I first posted. The marks you show on the piece of paper, I assume those to be stampings, proof marks, you found on the barrel or other part of the rifle? If so, the NPv and the E inside the V indicate the rifle was proofed in Vienna. The 421 could be the date code and would mean the rifle was proofed in April of 1921. The 7,9 could be the caliber which would mean an 8 X 56 Mannlicher/Schoenauer cartridge and would make the rifle a model of 1908. The rest of the marks I can't say without seeing them on the rifle. They could be the weight and type of bullet along with perhaps the powder type and weight for which the rifle was proofed.
I am returning to this with a question about timing. If the rifle is a model 1908 and the 421 indicated that the rifle was proofed in 1921, does that mean that this particular model was made for 13+ years? I know that you are only suggesting that the 421 indicates the date code of the proofing, and I am still waiting to hear back from the client, but since he also wants me to identify the marks at the top (the crown and the interlaced "NL") I am doing some other research. The crown (technically a coronet) is for someone of the rank of count, or graf in Germany. But the nobility was abolished in both Austria and Germany in 1919. Of course NL may have put the coronet on there as an "in your face" sort of thing if the rifle was acquired in 1921 or later. But I just want to verify that the model was being manufactured that long. (I guess I am accustomed to our modern way of doing things: new models every year!)
 
#10 ·
Well, you know, the Colt 1911 pistol is still being made, in 2015. The Winchester 1873 rifle was made up to the 1930s, the 1892 rifle was made up to WW2, and the 1894 rifle is still being made.

Guns, unlike cars, don't come out with a new one every year.
 
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#12 ·
I'm not as familiar with the 1908 as I am the 1903....because I own a 1903. All 1903's were originally chambered for the 6.5 X 54 M/S cartridge. That some have been re-chambered and re-barreled is beyond dispute. Anyway, my "Model of 1903" was proofed in 1929 and assuredly manufactured long after 1903. The date has nothing to do with the model number. With firearms, generally, if a year model is used to identify a firearm that is the year of introduction. The Model of 1908 was introduced in 1908 and all were originally chambered for the 8 X 56 M/S cartridge. The 1905 was chambered for the 9 X 56 M/S cartridge. I expect you see how even though they are the same rifle in this instance the model number depicts the cartridge for which it was chambered in addition to the year of introduction. Clear as mud?:D How long a firearm may or may not be made depends on the popularity, thus profitability, of the model.

You've surely heard of the "30-06" cartridge. That denotes 30 caliber and in this case the year that cartridge was introduced, 1906. There is absolutely no rhyme nor reason to the naming of either cartridges or firearms. A minor exception can be made for the European method such as 8 X 56 where the first number is the caliber in millimeters and the second number is the empty case length in millimeters. HOWEVER!!! By that method duplication and sometimes confusion is assured. Cartridge nomenclature is definitely as clear as mud....to everyone.

I can find no end date for the manufacture of the 1908 M/S. I expect it would be safe to assume that during WWI manufacture slowed considerably if it didn't stop completely. After the war manufacture resumed and I would expect continued up to the beginning of WWII. Some German sporting rifles were made during that war but I do not know if the same can be said of Austria. Those German sporting rifles were mostly made in small shops and as Steyr was a fairly large manufacturing concern I suspect they didn't put together many sporting rifles as their output would have more directed toward the war effort.

All the early Mannlicher/Schoenauer's were the same rifle, the 1903, '05, '08 and '10. The only difference was in the cartridge they were chambered for and some minor details in the stock and/or sighting equipment or, as I recently learned, in the take down models.

Those early models are valued as collector firearms and shooting/hunting rifles. The less they are altered from original the more valuable. Too often a valuable, original firearm has been altered by a well meaning individual who later complains it isn't worth as much as one that has not been altered or refinished or some other change. The thinking often being, "well, mine looks better" and from a purely aesthetic standpoint it might. But it is no longer original. Often 50% of the value is "refinished" off. As with vintage vehicles, they're only original once.

Get me pictures, clear pictures of all the proofs on the action and barrel and I can get pretty close to the meaning of most, if not all. Better yet, post them on the GGCA site and I know you'll receive definitive answers.

Regarding the crown. Who knows? If the rifle was indeed proofed in 1921, which as you allude is speculation on my part, I doubt that in 2 years from the abolishing of noble and/or royal rank they were quite ready to give up the title, whether there was any authority with it or not. I can easily see a noble putting the crown on a personal possession for the least of a reason that they want to be reminded of who or what they were....and that others who saw the rifle would know it also. That holds true today some 96 years after the titles were supposedly abolished. Many former nobles don't put much stock in the title but will point out that they come from royal or noble blood and "that is our coat of arms" or "our crest". Pride is a powerful emotion.

Didja hike over to the GGCA site? Those guys are all gentlemen, much the same as this site, and I know they'd help however they could.
 
#15 ·
I'm not as familiar with the 1908 as I am the 1903....because I own a 1903. All 1903's were originally chambered for the 6.5 X 54 M/S cartridge. That some have been re-chambered and re-barreled is beyond dispute. Anyway, my "Model of 1903" was proofed in 1929 and assuredly manufactured long after 1903. The date has nothing to do with the model number. With firearms, generally, if a year model is used to identify a firearm that is the year of introduction. The Model of 1908 was introduced in 1908 and all were originally chambered for the 8 X 56 M/S cartridge. The 1905 was chambered for the 9 X 56 M/S cartridge. I expect you see how even though they are the same rifle in this instance the model number depicts the cartridge for which it was chambered in addition to the year of introduction. Clear as mud?:D How long a firearm may or may not be made depends on the popularity, thus profitability, of the model.

You've surely heard of the "30-06" cartridge. That denotes 30 caliber and in this case the year that cartridge was introduced, 1906. There is absolutely no rhyme nor reason to the naming of either cartridges or firearms. A minor exception can be made for the European method such as 8 X 56 where the first number is the caliber in millimeters and the second number is the empty case length in millimeters. HOWEVER!!! By that method duplication and sometimes confusion is assured. Cartridge nomenclature is definitely as clear as mud....to everyone.

I can find no end date for the manufacture of the 1908 M/S. I expect it would be safe to assume that during WWI manufacture slowed considerably if it didn't stop completely. After the war manufacture resumed and I would expect continued up to the beginning of WWII. Some German sporting rifles were made during that war but I do not know if the same can be said of Austria. Those German sporting rifles were mostly made in small shops and as Steyr was a fairly large manufacturing concern I suspect they didn't put together many sporting rifles as their output would have more directed toward the war effort.

All the early Mannlicher/Schoenauer's were the same rifle, the 1903, '05, '08 and '10. The only difference was in the cartridge they were chambered for and some minor details in the stock and/or sighting equipment or, as I recently learned, in the take down models.

Those early models are valued as collector firearms and shooting/hunting rifles. The less they are altered from original the more valuable. Too often a valuable, original firearm has been altered by a well meaning individual who later complains it isn't worth as much as one that has not been altered or refinished or some other change. The thinking often being, "well, mine looks better" and from a purely aesthetic standpoint it might. But it is no longer original. Often 50% of the value is "refinished" off. As with vintage vehicles, they're only original once.

Get me pictures, clear pictures of all the proofs on the action and barrel and I can get pretty close to the meaning of most, if not all. Better yet, post them on the GGCA site and I know you'll receive definitive answers.

Regarding the crown. Who knows? If the rifle was indeed proofed in 1921, which as you allude is speculation on my part, I doubt that in 2 years from the abolishing of noble and/or royal rank they were quite ready to give up the title, whether there was any authority with it or not. I can easily see a noble putting the crown on a personal possession for the least of a reason that they want to be reminded of who or what they were....and that others who saw the rifle would know it also. That holds true today some 96 years after the titles were supposedly abolished. Many former nobles don't put much stock in the title but will point out that they come from royal or noble blood and "that is our coat of arms" or "our crest". Pride is a powerful emotion.

Didja hike over to the GGCA site? Those guys are all gentlemen, much the same as this site, and I know they'd help however they could.
Thank you for clarifying and explicating. Yes, your explanation about model numbers and dates of manufacture makes perfect sense.

I will do my best to provide you with additional photos of the rifle, but the client hasn't responded to my request. I tried to explain that knowing exactly what was inscribed and where makes a difference. We shall see....

And yes, I agree, law or no law, I would continue to remind myself and everyone around me that I was a Gräfin
 
#13 ·
I doubt they are ready to give up the title yet. I know I wouldn't be.

If my family had been the Graf von und zu Alpos since the twelfth century, if some law came along that said we no longer had Counts, I'd still be using the title. Might not have any power in running the country anymore, but by damn, I'm the Graf.

And I'd be quite likely to have the von und zu Alpo coat of arms on my luggage tags, and things of that nature.
 
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#16 ·
I doubt they are ready to give up the title yet. I know I wouldn't be.

If my family had been the Graf von und zu Alpos since the twelfth century, if some law came along that said we no longer had Counts, I'd still be using the title. Might not have any power in running the country anymore, but by damn, I'm the Graf.

And I'd be quite likely to have the von und zu Alpo coat of arms on my luggage tags, and things of that nature.
Actually, it appears that the nouveau nobility were the ones most incensed by the loss of titles since they had spent lots of good money to acquire that title! But I agree, slap that reminder on all sorts of doo-dads and geegaws.
 
#17 ·
I'm new here and I have some information about this wonderful, famous rifle:
It's a Mannlicher Mod. 1908 Cal. 8 x 56, "Stutzen", that means full-stocked with a short barrel 20".
The signs on the end of the rifle means:
"H" Hirsch, male of Cervus elephus
"Th. u. K". Thiere und Kaelber, female ore less than 1 year old from Cervus elephus
"Db". Dachsbaer, male of Meles meles
"G. u. K". Gemsen und Kitze, female ore less than 1 year old from Rupicapra rupicapra
"G" Gamsbock, male of Rupicapra rupicapra
"S" Sauen, sus scrofa
"U" Urhahn Tetrao urogallos

The owner of this rifle was a passionated hunter. For all this game you need a rifle, shotgun is not allowed.
For the other informations I will ask friends of course by some datas I'm not shure. First proof it was in Vienna (V including old E), second for smokeless nitro powder also Vienna (NPv), but than the sign "v" in a circle means that the rifle was send back to proof it again for to change the caliber. The caliber was changed from 7,92 x 57 mm (German Military) to 8 x 56mm Mannlicher. "t" in a cirle I can not find.
11240, Mod. No.
2168, No. of Rifle
C 8.0, drilled up to 8mm
421, April 1921 In this time normally they have not done this (but I'm not shure and will ask my friends of course normally in austria they use letters for the date)
-2 shorting the cartrigde bearing
7,9, the old diameter

I think the original rifle was built between 1908 and 1919 during the end of the "Habsburger Monarchie" of course the form of the letters (Th for "Thiere" instead of "Tiere", the monogram with a crown and nailing the stock is very old traditionell.
 
#19 ·
Must be some tough dang wood grouse, if you gotta use a 8mm rifle on 'em, and shootguns ain't allowed. :p

But, since he only gone one of 'em, maybe they are tough. Maybe shoulda used a bigger gun. o_O
 
#20 ·
Marblekonus, I too thank you for posting that information. I had no idea how to decipher the code.

And, welcome to the site from a German/Austrian firearm aficionado!!! It is great to have a member from Germany!
 
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#21 ·
Sorry, I've forgotten "Rb", Rehbock, male of Capreolus capreolus, most shootet game in Germany and Austria.

In former times "Db" , the Dachs, living in self digged holes, was an important game, hair for shaving brush, fat for medicine, meat for ham.
The "Gams" ist the top of all hunting, very difficult and hard to climb in the Alpes. If you have reached your aim and have shot a capital Gams, you can show proud the result on your hat, the "Gamsbart" that's the hair in winter on the back and it's bounded like a bunch. Every year a competiton who has the best and biggest in Bavaria and Austria.
The"Urhahn" or Auerhahn is now protected in the most Areas. It's a big spectacle in spring time to watch him, my uncle shot a very big of them in Austria 1962. Very seldom now in the middle of Europe. Before WWI in Austria, also Germany it was only the aristocracy allowed to shot "Urhahn", therefore I think this rifle belongs to a higher nobleman
 
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