Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by HiSpeed, Jun 14, 2007.

  1. HiSpeed

    HiSpeed New Member

    Jan 8, 2006
    Pace, Florida area
    McCarthy Bill Rammed Through The House
    -- Deal between NRA leadership and Democrats leaves most Republicans
    in the dark

    Gun Owners of America E-Mail Alert
    8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151
    Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408

    Thursday, June 14, 2007

    Wednesday started out as a routine day in the U.S. Congress, with
    Representatives attending congressional hearings, meeting with
    constituents, perhaps devising clever new ways to pick our pockets.

    At 8:30 in the morning an email went out to House Republicans
    indicating that a gun control bill, recently introduced by Rep.
    Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY), was on the Suspension Calendar (normally
    reserved for "non-controversial" bills).

    Many Representatives didn't see that email until it was too late.
    Less than three hours later, the bill passed by a voice vote. The
    bill in question, H.R. 2640, is a massive expansion of the Brady Gun
    Control law, the subject of many previous alerts by Gun Owners of

    Its passage in the House is a case study in backroom deal making,
    unholy alliances and deceit. A sausage factory in a third world
    country with no running water has nothing on today's U.S. Congress.

    The Washington Post reported earlier this week that a deal had been
    struck between the NRA leadership and Democrat leaders in the House.
    The headline read: "Democrats, NRA Reach Deal on Background-Check

    Red flags went up throughout the pro-gun community. Who was party to
    this "deal," and how many of our rights were being used as

    The McCarthy bill, at the time, looked to be going nowhere. The
    general consensus among pro-gun Congressmen was that any gun bill
    offered by McCarthy was simply DOA.

    After all, if there were such a thing as a single issue Member of
    Congress, it would have to be McCarthy. Rep. McCarthy ran for office
    to ban guns; Hollywood made a movie about her efforts to ban guns;
    and she is currently the lead sponsor of a bill that makes the old
    Clinton gun ban pale by comparison.

    Even many Democrats wouldn't go near a McCarthy gun bill. They have
    learned that supporting gun control is a losing issue. Enter Rep.
    John Dingell (D-MI), the so-called Dean of the House, having served
    since the Eisenhower administration. Dingell is also a former NRA
    Board member, and was in that capacity tapped to bring the NRA
    leadership to the table.

    The end result of the negotiations was that this small clique among
    the NRA leadership gave this bill the support it needed to pass.

    But why was it necessary to pass the bill in such an underhanded
    fashion? If this is such a victory for the Second Amendment, why all
    the secrecy? Why was a deal forged with the anti-gun Democrat House
    leadership, keeping most pro-gun representatives in the dark? Why
    was the bill rammed through on the Suspension Calendar with no
    recorded vote with which to identify those who are against us?

    For starters, it would be a hard sell indeed for the NRA leadership
    to explain to its members what they would gain by working with
    McCarthy. If this legislation had gone before the NRA membership for
    a vote, it would have been rejected. For that matter, if it went
    through the House in the regular fashion, with committee hearings and
    recorded votes, it would have been defeated.

    Consider also what the bill is: GUN CONTROL! The lead sentence in an
    Associated Press article accurately stated that, "The House Wednesday
    passed what could become the first major federal gun control law in
    over a decade."

    The bill's supporters can talk all they want to the contrary, but
    forcing the states to hand over to the federal government millions of
    records of Americans for the purpose of conducting a background check
    is certainly an expansion of gun control.

    This is a bill designed to make the gun control trains run on time.
    Problem is, the train's on the wrong track. We don't need greater
    efficiency enforcing laws that for years we have fought as being

    Sure, there are provisions in the bill by which a person who is on
    the prohibited persons list can get his name removed, but not before
    proving one's innocence before a court, or convincing a psychiatrist
    that he should be able to own a gun (though most psychiatrists would
    be more likely to deem a person mentally defective for even wanting
    to own guns).

    Sad thing is, this bill, which spends hundreds of millions of your
    dollars, will do nothing to make us safer. More gun control laws
    will not stop the next deranged madman. What will stop a killer is
    an armed law-abiding citizen. In the wake of the Virginia Tech
    tragedy, we should be considering removing barriers that prevent
    honest, decent people from carrying their lawfully possessed

    We don't know where the next shooting will occur; that's something
    the killer decides. So whether it is in a school, a church, a
    shopping mall or a government building, we should urge our elected
    officials to repeal so-called gun free zones and oppose more gun

    Instead, we end up with a bill supported by Handgun Control and Sarah
    Brady, Chuck Schumer, Teddy Kennedy, Carolyn McCarthy, and the rest
    of the Who's Who of the anti-gun movement, and all the while the NRA
    leadership maintains that this is a win for gun owners.

    This is a Faustian bargain, which will repeatedly haunt gun owners in
    the years to come.

    But you should realize why they had to do it this way. Your activism
    has resulted in an avalanche of grassroots opposition against this
    bill. Gun owners have raised their voices of opposition
    loud-and-clear, and many congressmen have been feeling the heat.

    The fight is not over. They still have to run this through the
    Senate. Already, there is a small cadre of pro-gun senators who are
    ready to slow this bill down and do everything they can to kill it.
    To be frank, a bill that has the support of all the anti-gun groups
    and the NRA will be tough to beat, but we will continue to fight
    every step of the way.

    Although we've suffered a setback, we want to thank all of you for
    the hard work you've done. Your efforts derailed the McCarthy bill
    for the past five years and we would have prevailed again were it not
    for the developments described above.

    Be looking for an upcoming alert to the U.S. Senate. GOA will give
    you the particulars of the bill that passed the House, and we will
    provide you suggested language for a pre-written letter to your two

    Stay tuned. There is more to come.
  2. pickenup

    pickenup Active Member

    Sep 11, 2002
    Colorado Rocky Mountains

  3. Marlin T

    Marlin T Well-Known Member

    Jul 8, 2005
    New Mexico
    Nice, no vote huh? What a shame and totally ridiculous. The most ridiculous part is that beings those traitors at the NRA are backing this bill, it will most likely pass the senate too.
  4. polishshooter

    polishshooter Well-Known Member

    Mar 25, 2001
    Is this the bill that makes it uniform how the states report "treatment for a mental disorder" to NICS instead of the "hodgepodge" it is now?

    Now yeah, I don't want anybody to pass ANYTHING without me reading the ENTIRE bill first, too many "unintended consequences" in the past, BUT all I have heard so far is that it's pretty "clean," and only adjusts the state's reporting of information that would disallow people that have been TREATED for mental illness across the board, not only in some states like it is now, with no rhyme or reason.

    In the wake of VT, I'm kinda happy if that is ONLY what they try to "ram through," and you know you have to "pick battlefields" carefully...if this truly IS the only thing in the bill, then this just MIGHT be a good move for the NRA to back...politically speaking...especially in THIS climate.

    You have to remember, what Von Clauswitz said....
    "Try to defend EVERYTHING and you defend NOTHING."

    Don't be so quick to slam it...YET.
  5. Rommelvon

    Rommelvon New Member

    Aug 6, 2006
    Goldsboro, NC
    concerning mental illness and persons that have or are being treated, where does it draw the line.....if a person gets grief counseling is that considered mental illness, what about anxiety, social phobia etc......this bill is a crock, it seems if anyone has sought help for any kind of mental illness at all they are being punished, I have a very close friend who has anxiety issues, he is also a gun owner...I trust him more than most people, according to this bill, because he sought help he will not be able to buy a gun now?...there has to be definitive lines drawn, this bill will also keep people from seeking help if they need it.....out second amendment rights are drifting away....:mad:
  6. Pat Hurley

    Pat Hurley Former Guest

    Sep 30, 2006
    Naples, Florida

    Any erosion in rights (real or imagined) will be able to be traced directly back to a mentally ill immigrant who bought two hand guns LEGALLY and mowed down a lot of bright young Americans with them. You ought to be figuring out a way that this tragedy can be avoided in the future rather than writhing your hands and gnashing your teeth about loose ends and non-uniformity in background examinations nationwide being remedied.

    I asked elswhere - in another thread - what types of mental illnesses, and to what degree, do you think should disqualify someone from purchasing a weapon? Surprisingly, few were willing to translate their caterwauling into specifics that everyone could read and respond to. Perhaps I could better appreciate your position if I understood it better. Will you answer the question I've posed?
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2007
  7. SouthernMoss

    SouthernMoss *Admin Tech Staff*

    Jan 1, 2003
    SW MS
    Pat, I tend to stay out of political discussions because, quite frankly, I detest politics. However, my position on this issue, or ANY issue that involves laws attempting to control my rights, can be boiled down to a couple of quotes.

    Benjamin Franklin:
    Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

    I'd rather live in an unsafe world where I'm free, than a safe world where my rights are not absolute. Risk of harm is the price of true freedom.

    I have a right to own a firearm. When you start legislating that right, you turn it into a priviledge rather than a right, and priviledges can be removed.

    Do I personally want a mentally unstable person to own a firearm? No, of course not. Do I want the government to define what "mentally unstable" means and legislate gun ownership? Absolutely not.

    Others mention the "slippery slope." To me, it's not a slope, it's a cliff. The minute you give the government power over your rights, you've already lost them. And I'm just not willing to give up my rights to anyone, especially a bunch of politicians and bureaucrats who have already demonstrated beyond question that they can be bought and are not trustworthy.

    So, if it comes down to mental unstables with guns, or handing over my rights on a platter, I'm afraid I have to choose my rights. And if my world is more dangerous because of my choice, then so be it.
  8. inplanotx

    inplanotx Active Member

    Jan 28, 2002
  9. HiSpeed

    HiSpeed New Member

    Jan 8, 2006
    Pace, Florida area
    Well said SoMo.
  10. Very well said, SoMo, and I completely agree. An armed man (or woman!) is a citizen; a disarmed man (or woman) is a subject. It seems to me that our own government has been busy for over half a century inexorably turning the people of the United States into docile subjects with neither the gumption nor the means to be individuals and free men. If this trend is not reversed, I fear greatly for the continuence of the Republic.
  11. Marlin

    Marlin *TFF Admin Staff Chief Counselor*

    Mar 27, 2003
    At SouthernMoss' side forever!
    What's that ole saying?

    "Great minds run in......"

    I agree with SoMo and Plano 1000% !!!
  12. Pat Hurley

    Pat Hurley Former Guest

    Sep 30, 2006
    Naples, Florida

    As usual SoMO, you have been eloquent and persuasive. But your analysis will not withstand a rigorous examination.

    I trust that you agree with the concept that 15 year olds cannot purchase handguns, yes? Then you have already contradicted the purist position of unlimited gun access and gun ownership. Let's take this concept a step or two further.

    1. Do you believe that anyone should be able to yell "FIRE" in a crowded theater, when no fire actually exists?
    2. What about posting derogatory, false, malicious allegations against a TFF member in this forum that would do severe damage to his/her reputation?

    A restriction on scenario number 1 would seem to be an egregious violation of our right to free speech. But reasonable people agreed, long ago, that a stampede for the exits after someone falsely hollered "FIRE!" - and the ensuing deaths that would surely occur - were simply unacceptable and a grave danger to public safety. Any restriction on scenario number two would again seem to encroach upon the right to free speech were I to interpret the Constitution in an absolutist and purist way. Yet this too has been determined - by reasonable people - to be beyond the pale, morally wrong, and illegal.

    I doubt that you would reverse any of the above by making shouting "FIRE", or libeling someone, perfectly acceptable and legal activities. So, my analysis is that you (any many other people here whom I greatly respect) are absolutists and reactionary only where the Second Amendment is concerned. And that, to me, is an oddity and an inconsistency. Either something is an unreasonable risk, morally indefensible, and/or a grave danger to the general public or it is not, no matter which Amendment it may relate to.

    I believe your position is not without merit, but 180 degrees out of phase with the safety and security of the general public (that includes you and me!). 15 year olds buying hand guns is imprudent and foolish. And so is allowing mentally defected persons from buying dangerous weapons.

    If you insist on digging your heals in and resisting common sense measures that allow for more thorough and accurate background examinations designed to keep a repeat of the VT shooting from ever happening again, you do more harm to our cause than you can imagine. There are vast amounts of Americans who are not active gunners but who regularly vote in favor of our cause and our candidates. If they get so turned off and repulsed by what will be surely portrayed as our tacit approval of the VT shooting happening again because we resist reforms designed to curb it, our little gun club is gonna lose a LOT of members. Then try to defend your rights. Then try to stop the onslaught. Then try to stop the restrictions. Then try to win the gun argument in the arena of ideas. We will have boxed ourselves into a lonely corner and we'll be hopelessly tagged as active contributors to a preventable bloodbath the next time a wacko legally purchases a gun and slaughters the innocent.

    I wish to note, before I close, that not one person in the hallowed halls of TFF has chosen to list the mental illnesses that would be ACCEPTABLE to them for a gun purchaser to have. I find this most illuminating.
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2007
  13. SouthernMoss

    SouthernMoss *Admin Tech Staff*

    Jan 1, 2003
    SW MS
    Actually, Pat, the majority of 15 year olds a perfectly responsible human beings, and I have no problem with them owning firearms. Now before you start going to down the road of "what about 12 year olds, or 6 year olds", let me say that even we "absolutists" as you call us believe in an age of majority. Let's not get distracted from the main issue here.

    The difference here is that your two examples are acts performed with intent to cause harm. Owning a firearm is not an act performed with intent to cause harm.

    And owning a firearm does not fall into that category.

    You are falling into the common position taken by the anti's of blurring the line between owning a firearm, and using a firearm for a malicious or illegal purpose. I have no problem with taking away the rights of a criminal. But I DO have a problem with taking away the rights of someone whose only "crime" is falling into some arbitrary category established by politicians looking for "feel-good" legislation.

    This is why we must educate them, and the rest of America, rather than try to tiptoe around the anti's and give in a little here and a little there. We must do a better job of informing America that it was the repression of gun owners's rights on the VT campus that allowed the situation to escalate like it did. Everyone seems to overlook the fact that the gunner had the guns on campus illegally. The law-abiding gun owners had left their guns at home, and had thereby given up their right to defend themselves and others. More laws taking away our rights is not the answer. We are not resisting reforms designed to curb the VT shooting. We are promoting our own reforms, designed not only to curb the VT shooting, but to give back the rights that never should have been infringed in the first place.
  14. SouthernMoss

    SouthernMoss *Admin Tech Staff*

    Jan 1, 2003
    SW MS
    That's because you're missing the point (on purpose, perhaps?). You might as well say that it's ok for a gun purchaser to have a cold, but not the flu. It's ok to have brown eyes, but not blue. It's ok to be from the country but not from the city. Having a mental illness is not a crime. And purchasing a gun should not be a crime unless the purchaser is a criminal.
  15. Pat Hurley

    Pat Hurley Former Guest

    Sep 30, 2006
    Naples, Florida
    I'm not sure that I know how to properly respond. Was that first sentence condescension?

    Your thesis is that until someone has been convicted of a crime, nobody should be restricted from purchasing a weapon. That is anti-intellectual, dangerous, forseeably wrong headed, and absurd. The greater good demands that we call a spade a spade... persons who have a serious mental defect, and thus not in full control of their faculties, presents an unreasonable risk for avoidable tragedy. If you think that this statement is crazy (no pun intended), then we are hopelessly poles apart.

    When your children were very young, did you child proof the kitchen cabinets so that they did not have full access to chemicals, cleaning supplies and the like? Why? They had not yet consumed any Drain-O, so why the draconian restrictions? Because they didn't have the mental capacity to fully understand their actions. Their judgement was impaired by immaturity. Danger was an obscure concept. So it is with persons who have mental defects. We choose not to wait until they shoot President Reagan, or slaughter college kids, or even shoot themselves before we take action. I choose not to wait until Johnny takes a few swigs of Drain-O before I lock the cabinets - I can FORESEE THE DANGER and choose to err on the side of abundant caution.

    I point out again that you are an absolutitst where the second amendment is concerned, but you're OK with public interest restrictions elsewhere in our Constitution. That's hard to comprehend. Even our Founding Fathers weren't absolutists.

    Why shouldn't a 30 year old be able to run for President? Why shouldn't a foreign born person be able to run for President? What crime has been committed? None. But our Founding Fathers were wise enough to know that most 30 year olds have not lived long enough, nor developed enough maturity and judgement to hold such an important high office. And the risk was too great that loyalties may be split, if a foreign born person were allowed to be President. Arbitrary, you say? Perhaps, but I would argue that it's timeless wisdom, and prudence in all its glory.

    You, and others, take such a hard line because you think that it is the only way to effectively defend our Second Amendment rights - too bad if 30 young people are mowed down by a deranged college student in the process. That's an acceptable loss. I contend that we all have an obligation to rigorously defend our gun rights while at the very same time setting parameters that will keep our gun rights more impenetrable to its foes. When you cavalierly say to Americans "tough f***ing luck to the VT students. My unfettered gun rights are more important than their lives," you polarize our country unnecessarily, and sick the hounds of hell on our gun rights. In short, your beliefs are going to have the exactly opposite effect of their intended outcome.

    God said "Thou shall not kill." But what does that mean to a mentally ill person in a cognitive fog? Even God didn't mean that you can't defend yourself from being killed, by killing your attacker. But if you are an absolutist, there is no room for such extra-biblical interpretations.

    It's clear that we will never agree on this subject, and I think I'm awfully close to being nauseatingly redundant in my posts. So, I'll stop here. But please know this; you do not love the Second Amendment more than I do. You are not more aware of the anti-gun juggernaut than I am. I am a dyed-in-the-wool gunner who will fight to the death to preserve our gun rights, but I will use the senses that God gave me to curtail the rights of some if their capacity for sound judgement and reasoned thought has been seriously impaired.
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