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Mysterious double percussion shotgun

1K views 16 replies 4 participants last post by  Jubilado 
#1 ·
Although past the age when I can gallivant over hill and dale with a gun over my arm, I still retain a lively interest if firearms and in particular, in their history and development.
I was delighted when an acquaintance presented me with a percussion model with a curious history. An Italian soldier, sent to the Eastern Front (that would have been 1941 - 1942 time) took the gun from a Russian partisan and presented it to a museum in a small Sicilian town. After the building had been reduced to rubble by shelling from the sea, a British sailor "liberated" the gun from the ruins. He passed it to my benefactor.
I am scratching my head to identify the marks. The style could be German but they didn't use a formal proof prior to 1891. I will try to add a picture in the hope that a wiser forum member can help me.
Best wishes and thanks to you all.
Wood Automotive tire Rectangle Automotive exterior Artifact
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Jubilado, it does look a bit like the Imperial German Eagle.

As you probably know, Germany was not a country such as we think of until after the 1870-71 Franco - Prussian War and, as you mentioned, did not have a National proof law until the 1891-93 proof law. However, several municipalities and Duchies had their own stamps dating back to the 1700's. Not necessarily proofs as we think of them, more identifying stamps for where the piece was made.

I can't say those stamps are in fact of German origin but, they could be. Pictures of the entire firearm might help.
 
#3 ·
Table Wood Automotive exterior Hardwood Bicycle handlebar
Brown Wood Trunk Hardwood Twig

Rae, thank you for your response. It was very encouraging. The photos show that some further tidying up is required but I hope that the decorative fluting on the barrels can be seen. The sling swivel positions appear correct for Austrian and German hunting practice but that may be more widespread than I know.
I look forward to your further observations.
 
#4 ·
Hmmmm. I don't believe that's a Germanic made firearm. It is purely my opinion but, it just doesn't have "the look" from that era and, seems a bit crude when compared to typical German craftsmanship. The engraving looks entirely wrong.

Usually the front trigger is shorter on guns from that era, there is no cheek rest which was almost a requirement at that time, the trigger guard is much too plain, the stock not nearly as heavily made as was typical for the period. The Germans also seem to have preferred back action locks as to "bar in wood" locks.

Other things say "maybe." The sling swivels. as you mention, were also used on Belgian guns and other Northern European guns, the octagon barrels say "maybe."

All that was the same as saying I don't know but, I don't believe it's German.
 
#5 ·
Thank you again for your thoughts. I certainly agree that this was never a top quality product and I was surprised to see how thin the barrel walls were at the muzzle end. The style of woodwork and lock plate would not, I feel, be out of place in the UK but the sling swivels would be less usual.
A somewhat similar shotgun is illustrated in the Alpha Weapons of the world catalogue. Item V19 on page 291. My gun has no trace of the eagle that adorns the stock in the catalogue illustration. I have some faith in the catalogue as I own an example of the Boucanier African Trade flintlock shown on page 285; it is of much more robust construction.
All in all, it still remains something of a mystery to me and I continue to be grateful to any help.
 
#6 ·
Jubilado, I just now took the opportunity to turn my laptop 90 degrees and looked at the stamps that I thought could be the Imperial Eagle. Are those the letters "VB" or "VD" with another stamp beneath them?

It does have a British or Belgian look, more so than German. However, doesn't the Belgian proof law go back to almost the 18th century? If so, and it's Belgian, it should have an "ELG" on it somewhere.
 
#7 ·
It does have a British or Belgian look, more so than German. However, doesn't the Belgian proof law go back to almost the 18th century? If so, and it's Belgian, it should have an "ELG" on it somewhere.
Belgian proof laws go back to 1672. They used the Perron as the final proof until 1810 when they started using the ELG final proof.
 
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#8 ·
Thanks Dave. First of all I knew you'd know. Secondly, I don't know why I can't remember that!!!!

Do you have any thoughts on the gun?
 
#10 ·
Rae, under daylight and with a loup, I see what could be a crown over two divisions. The left hand side may show the letter F or R but I cannot be certain of the RHS. I have played around with lighting and taken a close-up but it is not a great picture.
The interior of the lock plates show a very clear punch mark, RF in a box. An artisan's mark perhaps? The plates, hammers and lock mechanism all bear the same Nº 58 as the barrels.
The style of the numbers are the same as those on a small turn-off pistol with German proof, that I found, many years ago in Strasbourg. The pistol was stamped with a powder and shot load and could have been one of those churned out in Belgium for cyclists beset by dogs. However,
Brown Wood Beige Tints and shades Pattern

it bore no Belgian markings.
Thank you and your friends, for your help.
 
#11 ·
Uhhhh....I'm not Rae, I'm Vic. Rae is our resident cake and pie baker, Studebaker pick-up lover and of the female persuasion. Her name, or anyone's name, shows up at the bottom of a post when they hit the "Like" button. She has simply liked my response to your questions.

I suspect you are correct that the initials are mechanics marks. Unfortunately, I can't tell you anything else, I'm stumped too.
 
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