NATO - a new nation-state?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by 1952Sniper, Mar 8, 2003.

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  1. 1952Sniper

    1952Sniper New Member

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    505799
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    (2/10/03 4:33:49 pm)
    Reply NATO - a new nation-state?
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    Does anyone else wonder about NATO?

    The North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) is an organization established to manage a mutual defense treaty, but it appears to have become a nation-state unto itself.

    It has its own parliamentary assembly.

    Other nations send ambassadors to NATO.

    It is not controlled by any one geographically defined nation.

    It sends war materiel and military forces to other nations.

    It has acted unilaterally by waging war (e.g., the aerial bombing campaign in the Balkans) and sending military forces into other countries, both actions outside the NATO organizational mandate.

    It has a unique domain (nato.int).

    And it does not have the moral courage to defend a nation that has asked for help.

    Sounds like a nation-state to me.

    Anyone else have views on NATO?


    1952Sniper
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    (2/10/03 5:03:18 pm)
    Reply | Edit Re: NATO - a new nation-state?
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    I think NATO is a redundant organization. It was originally intended to act as a unified front against the Soviet Union. With the collapse of the USSR, NATO doesn't seem to have much purpose. If we want a multi-nation organization to whine all the time and accomplish nothing, then the UN is already set up for that.

    The only advantage I see to NATO at this point is that it does not include Russia and China and some other countries. Unfortunately, our whiny pals (the Germans and French) are members.

    Hey, here's a cool idea. What if the UN and NATO went to war with each other? Each one is comprised of many nations, and I'm pretty sure that all the NATO countries are UN members too. So what if the UN made a decision that was against NATO interests? Would you have citizens of member countries fighting their own countrymen? And where would that war be waged, since neither organization has any official country? Hmmmmm.......
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!


    cointoss 2
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 1302
    (2/10/03 8:24:06 pm)
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    Re: NATO - a new nation-state?
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    Off the cuff, I am starting to think the "Birchers" are right, "Get the U.S. out of the UN.
    cointoss2


    Yabra Kadabra Doo
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    (2/10/03 8:51:36 pm)
    Reply Re: NATO - a new nation-state?
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    And get the US out of NATO. I can understand the Germans being sappy crybabies about war, but the French just disgust me. We were always there for them when they needed a hand, but they've never been there for us when we need anything. Typical sleezy, grubby, selfish frog bastards. We buried 78,000 Americans in France just to see them all become Germans anyway.... or at least act like it. They don't deserve a country, and they certainly don't deserve to be in NATO.
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    My idea of an agreeable person is a person who agrees with me


    cointoss 2
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 1303
    (2/10/03 8:54:58 pm)
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    Re: NATO - a new nation-state?
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    Nor have the French ever paid a dime back.
    cointoss2


    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 6218
    (2/10/03 9:31:17 pm)
    Reply
    Re: NATO - a new nation-state?
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    I find it amazing that Turkey has asked NATO for protection and France, Germany, and Belgium have said NO.

    I wonder where this will lead. Sounds like the breakup of NATO when some of the member nations will not help protect on of their own.

    Ignorance is a crime in 49 states. In the other one it is bliss.


    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2042
    (2/10/03 11:40:23 pm)
    Reply Re: NATO - a new nation-state?
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    Well, Jas -

    I'll tell ya where it SHOULD lead - like the sentiments posted above, I've concluded the US doesn't belong in NATO or the UN. Knowing this is the "Isolationist" theory, maybe it's time for the US to quit trying to tell the rest of the world how to become a country like ours, quit financing 95% of the world economy and let the world feed, doctor, finance and govern themselves. Put everything on a cash and carry basis - we'll buy X billion in goods from you, you recipocate and buy the same X billion in goods from us.

    I've grown weary of seeing riots and demonstrations in various countries around the world chanting and waving anti-American slogans. The STUPID South Koreans are too STUPID to understand they'd be living the same as the North Koreans had it not been for the US. That our troops are there to assure it never happens to them while there. Same goes for the French (who had the gall to charge the US for "War Damages" at the end of WWII - AND GOT PAYMENT!) who, as said, have very short memories of their liberators. It's time to yank the troops out of Germany - let their failing economy take a dive without the US military expenditures to prop them up. With today's methods of air and sea lift, we probably don't need the naval bases to be maintained overseas. Let's rapidly develop and deploy the anti-missle defence system, keep our military honed to a sharp cutting edge and tell the rest of the world to suck eggs.

    Get the enviro-nuts out of the way, develop our own natural resources and stop sending it overseas as we do presently with the oil and natural gas from Alaska.

    Whew - ! Guess I'll have to go get a glass of iced tea to calm my nerves and bloodpressure down!
    "Keep Off The Ridgeline"


    Yabra Kadabra Doo
    V.I.P. Member
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    (2/10/03 11:49:59 pm)
    Reply Re: NATO - a new nation-state?
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    The STUPID South Koreans are too STUPID to understand they'd be living the same as the North Koreans had it not been for the US. That our troops are there to assure it never happens to them while there.
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    You got that right. I hate the S. Koreans about as much as i hate the French. Neither one of them knows any kind of appreciation. Some STUPID S. Korean sent out a mass email to all the university students here whining about the US soldiers not getting convicted of manslaughter for ACCIDENTALLY running over those two girls. He was spouting the usual anti-American BS that his typical dog-face friends do "back home".

    I take that back... i hate the French more. What was i thinking? There isn't a more useless race on the planet.

    GOING TO WAR WITHOUT FRANCE IS LIKE GOING DEER HUNTING WITHOUT YOUR ACCORDIAN

    We need France to go into Iraq to help show them how to surrender!

    With the Concorde crash of a few years ago...
    the French killed more Germans than in two World Wars!

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    My idea of an agreeable person is a person who agrees with me


    AGunguy
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 3349
    (2/11/03 12:02:09 am)
    Reply Re: NATO - a new nation-state?
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    You folks have got it covered pretty good, no use me adding to it.

    Except: "You French toadies suck!" Don't ever call us again when you are being invaded by someone taking over your asinine country."

    Gunguy


    1952Sniper
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    (2/11/03 9:16:47 am)
    Reply | Edit Re: NATO - a new nation-state?
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    I fully agree with the sentiments stated on France and South Korea. They are spineless sissies. Did anyone else see that segment the other night on 60 Minutes (or one of those programs.... I get them confused)? They interviewed some people in South Korea who said they were not afraid of N. Korea, and they actually wanted to be one country again! They see us as the enemy, not North Korea. Fine! Let's pull out and see how they like it. No sense in spending our dollars over there when they don't want us there. It was also interesting to see the emotional reaction from the US Commander of Armed Forces in Korea. He just about started crying about how the South Koreans feel. He's dedicated his career to protecting a bunch of ingrates.

    As for Germany, I think we have ourselves to blame for their current feelings on war. After WWII, we castrated them and told them over and over again how evil they were and how ashamed they should be. And rightly so. But that message stuck. Even to this day they are afraid to send troops anywhere, for fear of what the world will think to see German soldiers on foreign soil. They have lost all pride in the use of military force. Even though it pisses us off now that they are against war, that is what we taught them to think.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!


    Yabra Kadabra Doo
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    (2/11/03 9:45:12 am)
    Reply Re: NATO - a new nation-state?
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    You make a good point, but don't forget that it was the US that encouraged Germany to re-arm their military. France screamed like a jilted housewife over that one and almost broke up NATO then. I think most of the guilt poured on Germany has come from Europeans.

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    My idea of an agreeable person is a person who agrees with me


    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 6222
    (2/11/03 10:01:43 am)
    Reply
    Comic relief
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    Since you guys have everything covered so good in this thread I figured I could add some comic relief.

    In 1990 while I was stationed in Korea I was in charge of a detail of soldiers for setting up a firing range. We had a Duece 1/2 truck we were using to haul equipment back and forth. The range was outside of the military installation CH (Camp Humphries).

    The Koreans were on a big Anti-American thing and demonstrating in front of the gates leading in and out of CH. The Pvt. who was driving for me was freaking out because the Korean protestors who jump out in front of him as he drove in and out the main gate. He did not want to drive so I slid over to take the wheel. The back of the truck had another half dozen soldiers in it.

    We drove up to the gate and the Korean protestors laid on the ground in front of the truck. A large group of MPs were on one side of the gate yelling at the protestors. I slowed down and stopped. Blew the horn a few times revved that OLD girl up and popped the clutch. The Turbo on those old Duece 1/2s would really scream I was just getting nervous and ready to slam on the brakes when the guys blocking the road started scambling and SCREAMING like little girls to get the hell out of the way. The guys in back were cheering me on. GI's inside the fence were cheering. THe MPs were stunned but gave me the thumbs up as I drove by them. Shortly there after the Korean Police showed up to supervise the Demonstration.

    Funniest damn thing in the world when that old truck was roaring towards them with the turbo screaming and GIs in the back cheering- the look on the faces of the guys on the ground was priceless

    Ignorance is a crime in 49 states. In the other one it is bliss.


    Archangel
    Member
    Posts: 7
    (2/11/03 11:42:21 am)
    Reply hm
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    Personally I don`t think Nato will break up , though there will be a huge " dishwash " no matter what happens ,
    and US pulling out of Nato will only make it worse .
    If anyone should leave , needless to say it is the nations that DON`T want to support each other .

    I`m quite surprised that France , Germany and Belgium
    refuses to back up Turkey .
    Building up forces for a possible defence is not a war declaration .
    Though it is important to remember that France and
    Germany have other experiences from the world wars that we don`t have....ok for that I understand , but
    it doesn`t prevent the fact that Turkey is a member asking for help .

    As for Norway I guess the position is that the members should help each other because we are obliged to .
    I mean Norway is a small country and still we sent over crew for AWACS survaillence and some fighter-jets to patrol US airspace after 11.sept .
    We have also had special-forces fighting in Afghanistan
    in the mountains .
    And today some of the fighter-jets we have down there participated along-side with US planes to bomb for supporting troops that where ambushed .

    Though historically Norway and US have had a very good relationship


    AGunguy
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 3355
    (2/11/03 12:30:06 pm)
    Reply Re: hm
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    Loved your story, piggy. I would have like to seen them jitterbugs jittering out of the way. Haw haw...

    GG


    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2047
    (2/11/03 2:40:33 pm)
    Reply Re: hm
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    I guess you're right, Archangel -

    There ARE a very few countries left where you can say you're an American without looking over your shoulder for the knife. The Scandinavian countries keep a pretty low profile on such stuff and I for one, really appreciate the help extended to us by them immediately after 9/11.

    When in the Army I was hoping for a European assignment so that I could tour the Scandinavian areas - however, I got sent to STUPID Korea where all those STUPID Koreans live, to keep their sorry A$$es from being branded with the RNK iron. (Sigh) Sure could have spent 2 years of my young life doing something more rewarding, it seems.
    "Keep Off The Ridgeline"


    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 1052
    (2/11/03 5:04:15 pm)
    Reply | Edit Re: hm
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    Warpig, thanks for sharing that story. I wish I had seen that sight.

    It's been many years since I've been to Europe. When I was living in Germany in the mid-80s I don't recall any major anti-American sentiment. Sure, there were some people who didn't like Americans. But I never felt unsafe walking down the street.

    But I bet it's different now. The anti-American mentality has spread all over the world. You might even consider it the latest "en vogue" thing to do. Perhaps it's human nature, needing an enemy. And with the fall of the USSR, we are the only remaining power that people can really fear. That fear eventually turned to hate, and brought us to this current predicament. It's not going to get any better.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!


    riderbob
    Member
    Posts: 19
    (2/11/03 5:20:54 pm)
    Reply re: france
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    Hey guy really enjoy all this NATO and UN stuff. My boss spent a couple of years in France and has really only one theing to say. "I have never met a prouder people with nothing to be proud off". I say to hell with them, they haven't won a war since 1803 or sometime around there.

    OOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAA

    Rider


    Yabra Kadabra Doo
    V.I.P. Member
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    (2/11/03 6:47:18 pm)
    Reply Re: re: france
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    I`m quite surprised that France , Germany and Belgium
    refuses to back up Turkey .
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    I'm not surprised about Belgium at all. After all, they refused to give Britain shells just prior to Gulf War I. Makes you wonder how many British lives were wasted helping liberate Belgium from the Germans... twice. Of course, Belgium people really are French anyway, so i say carpet nuke them as well.

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    My idea of an agreeable person is a person who agrees with me


    cointoss 2
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 1305
    (2/11/03 8:24:25 pm)
    Reply
    Re: re: france
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    Kdub, Yabba dabba do, Piggy, and Sniper and everyone in this thread make a fine point. To hell with every other country, lets snub the hell out of them and pull the rug out as well. Let them starve, and to hell with their economys put our country first where it needs to be. I am sick to death of the back stabbing hand biteing presumed allies let them wilt.
    cointoss2


    505799
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 70
    (2/11/03 8:40:12 pm)
    Reply Please tell me how you really feel
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    Okay. I have read all the responses to my question.

    Now will you please tell me how you really feel?

    Would it not be interesting if, when the US acts alone against Iraq (as I believe the Adminstration will, as bad an idea as that is) the UN, NATO, EU, WTO and OPEC brand the US an aggressor state and impose economic and political sanctions?

    Anyone wanna bet on which nation(s) would make such a suggestion?


    Yabra Kadabra Doo
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    Posts: 180
    (2/11/03 9:10:24 pm)
    Reply Re: Please tell me how you really feel
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    the US acts alone against Iraq (as I believe the Adminstration will, as bad an idea as that is)
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    Why do you think it's a bad idea? Just because you're alone doesn't mean you're wrong. We were the ones who suffered 9/11... not the Krauts or the Frogs. I say go to war with whoever pisses us off. I've lived overseas most of my life and i'm frankly tired of a weak American administration. It's time we started acting like the superpower that we are and treating the scum like they deserve.

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    My idea of an agreeable person is a person who agrees with me


    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 1055
    (2/11/03 9:58:08 pm)
    Reply | Edit Re: Please tell me how you really feel
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    I agree with that sentiment. However, when we take a step back and look at the situation realistically, it would be suicide to turn our backs on the rest of the world and treat them like they really deserve. We would only end up hurting ourselves in the long run.

    To go to the opposite side of the spectrum, I don't have any respect for Britain. Tony Blair is just a puppet of Bush. While I do appreciate their support, I wish they had a spine and could think for themselves. I swear, when Bush's fingers move, Tony Blair dances.

    I think one of the most annoying things about Tony Blair is that when he talks, he sounds just like C3PO from Star Wars. Think about that, next time you hear him. I would just once like to hear him refer to Bush as "Master Luke".
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!


    505799
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 73
    (2/11/03 10:45:50 pm)
    Reply Why do we need allies?
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    First, I am not convinced that the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001 had any Iraqi involvement. Saudi involvement, maybe. Taliban involvement, probably. Iranian involvement, well who knows? But even the Bush Administration has not said Iraq had bupkis to do with September 11. If they had proof of such involvement, the Marines would be painting lines on the glass that formed from all that sand. So I do not buy the idea that wacking Saddam is justified by those events. Other events, sure. But those, no.

    Second, I am not suggesting that we need the French, Germans, or Russians. They could make taking Iraq a lot easier and in the end save American lives, but these countries are not indispensable.

    So why is the US attacking Iraq without getting other nations onboard a bad idea? Because of the following reasons.

    1. Given our current ability to sealift troops and supplies to far off lands, the US military cannot undertake such an action on its own. Simply, there is no way to transport the three Bs of war (bullets, beans, and, is it beer?) with the current sealift capacity of the US. Tom Clancy described the state of the National Defense Reserve Fleet this way
    I've seen some of those ships. We?ll need help, if only for sealift.

    2. Unless we plan to invade directly from the sea we have to have other nations on our side. At the very least the Kuwaitis. Why? To give us a place from which to launch an invasion of Iraq. I would also like the Turks, Syrians, and Jordanians and even in Iranians on our side, if only to give us more options for the direction from which to attack. This us why we are courting the Turks. Anyway I do not believe we could pull off a successful direct from the sea invasion, given our current sealift capability. Yes, we could land an Marine MAU, but that?s about it. And we could not supply them for very long and I, for one, remember the lessons of a place called Guadalcanal. I hope never to see brave Marines left on a hostile beach without adequate supplies. So again, we need allies.

    3. In battle, the idea that more is better is really true. Overwhelming force is the name of the game. The more, the merrier. I believe that we still teach our military that 3 to 1 odds (3 of us to 1 of the enemy) are the minimum acceptable odds. There are about 1,000,000 Iraqis under arms today. Sure, they are not armed with the best weapons and are not the best-trained troops in the world. Add to it the fact their morale sucks. But technology only goes so far. Do we have 3,000,000 troops to put into the field? No. We have deployed about 150,000 so far. With a tooth to tail ratio of 1 to 5, that means that we are looking at fielding a fighting force of about 30,000 troops. Bad odds. In ODS, the coalition forces had (on the battle line) about 100,000 troops and they didn?t have to fight the entire Iraqi army (which if we invade Iraq is a real possibility).

    4. The reason for attacking Iraq is the belief that they have and are developing WMD. Do we for a moment think that if Saddam?s back it to the wall, some of his hencemen (who will be facing a firing squad if the do or a firing squad if they don?t) will hesitate to use them? Beyond degrading the effectiveness of an already small force (through casualties and the hinderence of fighting in MOPP gear), there is the dynamic of being the only ones to face such a terrible event. If it happens that the Saddam regime uses WMD, I hope there is some stabilizing force to either keep the US from nuking the place (we?d be killing of lot of relatively innocent women and children if we do and that is bad for our standing in the world) or to keep the US from being the only nation to nuke the place.

    5. There are other reasons, but I?ll end with this. Which is better? A dead Frenchman or a dead American? Given the rhetoric around here I think I know the answer of most folks. I would hate to see some French soldier get killed, but I would hate even more to see an American soldier get killed. I might know him. Lots of folks I know have been called to active duty.

    There is one more reason. I knew five of the folks that died in the Pentagon. I think of at least one of them every day. Every time I am there (of late it is a lot because my main client is DoD), I think how fortunate I am not to have lost more friends and colleagues that day. When I saw the first image of the Pentagon on that terrible day, I thought the plane had hit the office of one of my closest friends. I made sure my wife and daughter we ssafe and went to his home. I thank God he, and most of the folks I knew, were not harmed. I hope not to loose any friends fighting in Iraq. I know that if we have more help on the battlefield when we get there (please note I did not say if we get there), there is less of a chance of that happening. Thats why we need allies.


    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2050
    (2/11/03 11:41:20 pm)
    Reply Re: Why do we need allies?
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    Are you calling the French, Germans and Russians our "Allies"?

    Pardon me while I puke.
    "Keep Off The Ridgeline"


    Yabra Kadabra Doo
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 183
    (2/12/03 1:27:44 am)
    Reply Re: Why do we need allies?
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    The French, the Germans, and the Russians have formed an alliance AGAINST us. Their intent is to hinder us in our attempt to procure safety and security for our people against foreign powers that threaten us. They are NOT our allies. They are our enemies, as far as i'm concerned.

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    There are about 1,000,000 Iraqis under arms today.
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    This was true in 1991, but they barely have 400,000 now and they are nowhere near as equipped or trained as they were when they were surrendering to CNN crews. Don't underestimate the power of a sustained bombing attack. Humans were not designed to withstand day after night after day after night of bombing raids shattering their minds and giving them only one desire... to surrender again.
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    My idea of an agreeable person is a person who agrees with me


    1952Sniper
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    Posts: 1058
    (2/12/03 8:42:00 am)
    Reply | Edit Re: Why do we need allies?
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    Yabra Kadabra Doo, you hit the nail on the head. I don't care if the Iraqis outnumber us 10 to 1. We will still beat them militarily. Why? We have a superior air force. It has been proven time and time again that sustained air bombardment (and air superiority in general) will win wars.

    All those well-armed Iraqis on the ground can't do squat when our B52s are raining bombs on them. We have been playing games with them for the last 10 years, knocking out their radar stations and AA batteries. But when we get serious, all those types of installations will be knocked out within a day. They will not know when or where we will attack next. They will know only when they start hearing explosions.

    This is the way our military has evolved. We do not rely on manpower, we rely on technology. So I'm not convinced at all that Iraq has any chance against us just because they might have superior numbers.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!


    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 6227
    (2/12/03 9:40:32 am)
    Reply
    ezSupporter
    Re: Why do we need allies?
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    505799 good points
    1952sniper

    Quote:
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    I think one of the most annoying things about Tony Blair is that when he talks, he sounds just like C3PO from Star Wars. Think about that, next time you hear him. I would just once like to hear him refer to Bush as "Master Luke".
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    ROFLMAO

    Ignorance is a crime in 49 states. In the other one it is bliss.
     
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