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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I am looking for a new 9mm handgun with the trigger pull of a 1911 and the 17 round magazine capacity of an M&P. The trigger of an M&P pro is fairly light, but I don't like the long travel. The sig P220 has the same problem of a long travel. The trigger of an S&W 1911 chambered for 9mm is great, but only has an 10 round mag.

Is there any handgun that has both?
 

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CZ75 or some of the newer variants.

May take some light trigger work, but that's how many 1911s get great triggers, too.
 

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I had a STI GP6 that held 17. It was a DA SA but in SA it had the crisp trigger of a 1911 and the reset was short. If you took your finger off of trigger you had to take up but thats the nature of the beast. Now with the M&P, much can be done. I've put take up set screws in the trigger bars, overtravel screws in the frame and reworked the internals to get them to a crisp 2lb trigger (it can be really any weight you want) with minimal trigger return. APEX also make a trigger kit but the take up is still long. The trigger safety also has to be refitted so it still works. See if there are any smiths in your area that know that action. Its a good candidate to be reworked
 

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You won't find what you seek on a new-in-box gun. Mass production tolerances,
safety and lawyers---all work against it.

There are companies out there that can do wonders with Glock triggers without
compromising the safeties, and a lot of it is drop in parts. No need to send the gun
away. Vanek, GlockWorx and others.

I've shot some Xd's with AMAZING triggers. Done by this outfit:

http://www.springerprecision.com/

There is a lot of info on the website, worth a look.
 

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My Beretta 92FS meets these requirements after I replaced the hammer spring with a Beretta "D" hammer spring. DA is now around 7.5 lbs and SA 3.5 to 4 lbs. Best mod I could have made.
 

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stev32k:

Whats the problem with the SIG trigger? Too long of a pull?

Triggers have common traits: pre-travel, creep, let-off, and over travel.

Pre-travel is the travel of the trigger until the mechanism starts to move the sear out of engagement with the hammer. Pre-travel is safety.

Creep is the action of the sear sliding along on the engagement surface in the hammer. The engagement must be such that the hammer can not fall on its own when the gun is jarred or bumped.

Let-off is the quality of the sear falling off the hammer engagement surface.

Over travel is usually adjusted with a screw in the trigger to limit how far the trigger travels after the hammer falls.

The SIG only suffers a long pre-travel but you can stage the pull to eliminate it. Allowing the trigger to return only until it resets for the subsequent shot eliminates the pre-travel completely. SIG's have virtually no creep and the let-off is crisp without any work to the ignition system. If the pull level is too high for you then a change of springs (as sold by Brownells) fixes that problem. 1911's do not come with a over travel trigger nor does the SIG but neither gun has an extreme of over travel in stock form, usually.

The CZ trigger is tougher because during the let-off the angles on the sear/hammer engagement surfaces cam the hamer back noticeably. That is a safety factor and all gun iginition system have to do it to some extent. The CZ is just a little excessive. That increases the pull level as you not only have to deal with the friction of sliding the sear off the hammer engagment shelf but you also have to fight the hammer spring because of the camming.

There is another problem in the CZ75B if you install an over travel screw in the trigger or elsewhere in the system. Adjusted for minimum over travel the trigger will not reset. Adjusted for the trigger to reset and the overtravel is measurable (unlike in a 1911 trigger). The CZ75B is a tactical gun, not a target gun and is so designed. So is the SIG but it just happens that the trigger design is very good and feels good for accuracy shooting. 1911's out of the box in most instances need help in the trigger department but there are bunches of after market parts that drop in to make the trigger much better.

All of these guns are tactical guns and should not have feather light triggers or they will become dangerous as they double when the gun may not be pointed at the target during the errant second firing. I once saw a TV show where that very thing happened and the bullet went up in the air and down through the roof of the club 22 NRA shooting range during a match and killed a teenager. Triggers must be safe!!!!

LDBennett
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
The things I don't like are the pre-travel, over travel, and anything over about 4 lb pull. I didn't know what a good trigger felt like until I got the Les Baer 1911 and now I'm spoiled. I tried the Sig and it had a pre-travel about like the M&P and was nearly twice the price.

I've been looking at the Apex forward set trigger assembly that is supposed to make the M&P trigger just like a 1911: https://apextactical.com/store/product-info.php?pid54.html . It is kinda pricy, but maybe it would be worth the money if it really does what they say.
 

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The S&W models 59 and 5906 after you squeeze of the first round the rest of the rounds you only need a tiny touch to finish off the magazine.I mean a tiny touch!
 

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I'd think the gunsmiths here might suggest that you buy the gun that fits you best and then have the trigger modified to your personal taste. That being said, the trigger pull on my SIG 226 is pretty sweet right out of the box. You might try and see if you can borrow one and test it for yourself. If you're ever in Maine, you can try mine!
 

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stev32k:

Americans tend to like the typical 1911 triggers done by good gunsmiths where you touch the trigger and add some small force and the hammer drops. The trigger seems to have never moved.

Europeans like two stage triggers. The first part of the pull gets the sear right to the edge where it takes a small additional force to get let off. While the SIG is NOT a two stage trigger it mimics it with the long pre travel. It does have over travel but it is not excessive.

The safest trigger is the two stage because they make it with lots creep. That is, lots of sear engagement which you take out with the initial pull (stage). The sear and hammer engagement surfaces are either chrome plated or highly polished so there is no grittyness in the first stage pull. The final stage can be extremely crisp as the sear is right at the edge of the engagement shelf. Lots of engagement is safety.

The least safe is the 1911 bullseye triggers that only take a touch to set them off. Often they are done with no consideration of safety but for extreme lightness to the point that some easily double. You leave safety in the hands of the gunsmith, good or bad.

The SIG is one of the better compromises between the two extremes. My personal choice is a good european style two stage trigger done with adjustments for both stages like you would get in a Anschutz or a European Olympic style pistol. The SIG trigger is very good indeed for a tactical weapon and works well enough for target shooting too.

But we all get tot choose. If you have not experience a real two stage trigger or even the compromise SIG trigger then you have not experience triggers at all. Try before you buy!

LDBennett
 

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The things I don't like are the pre-travel, over travel, and anything over about 4 lb pull. I didn't know what a good trigger felt like until I got the Les Baer 1911 and now I'm spoiled. I tried the Sig and it had a pre-travel about like the M&P and was nearly twice the price.

I've been looking at the Apex forward set trigger assembly that is supposed to make the M&P trigger just like a 1911: https://apextactical.com/store/product-info.php?pid54.html . It is kinda pricy, but maybe it would be worth the money if it really does what they say.
Thats what they advertise but I've put in enough of those that I know they don't. Firing pin safety still needs attention to get rid of the gritty feeling. Also the tolerances on the M&P are all different so a drop in trigger that will fix all of them isnt going to happen. The trigger weight is reduced to about 5lbs at best and thats if you use the replacement sear too. take up is better but still there. Over travel is mostly removed but the trigger still has a squirt gun feel to it. The APEX system is about the best out there but it needs some fine tuning to proclaim it feels like a 1911.
 

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+1 on the 92FS with a D spring modification. Extremely easy mod that will take 5 minutes and its a great reliable gun.
 

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If I want to smooth out a trigger and reduce the trigger pull at the same time I put moly on the sear. It will reduce the trigger pull up to 50% right away and more as it works into the pores of the metal. My cz85db (cz 75 clone) has an awesome trigger with just a lube. Once you see the results with one gun you will do them all.
 

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75% of the gritty trigger in the m&p is bc of thr firing pin safety and its contact with the trigger bar. moly lube wont help that. angles are too sharp. it just pushes the grease out of the way. moly does work well but its not perminant. Moly does work good with striker contacts
 

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May I suggest the Browning Hi-Power 9mm. John Browning built it based on the 1911 design. It's not quite 17 round capacity, but it holds more than the 1911. 13 rounds+1 in the chamber
 

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While I really love the Browning Hi Power, its trigger is terrible with the magazine safety and the latest new ones are the worst. It is possible to buy after market trigger parts that eliminate the mag safety and allow the trigger to be made very much better but out of the box the triggers are not good.

LDBennett
 

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Garandaholic
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While I really love the Browning Hi Power, its trigger is terrible with the magazine safety and the latest new ones are the worst. It is possible to buy after market trigger parts that eliminate the mag safety and allow the trigger to be made very much better but out of the box the triggers are not good.

LDBennett
I'm no world class shooter with a 1000 years experience or anything. I've always lusted after a BHP, and figured 1 day I'd own one.
I finally got a chance to spend some time shooting one a couple weeks ago and I was quite disappointed....with the trigger. I just didn't like it. I figured it was that particular gun, or just me. Perhaps though from this comment, it's a real issue. As I posted before, I like my SIG 226 very much and there was NO comparison between shooting the 226 and the BHP, there were 4 of us there, we all agreed. Just my personal observation.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I don't understand why manufacturers produce guns with such poor triggers. They have to know that people don't like them and they also know how to make good triggers. The S&W 1911 has a very good feeling smooth trigger with almost no pre-travel. But the M&P series feels gritty and has an excessive amount of pre-travel and over travel.

I've tried the Beretta, Sig, and Ruger and don't like any of them. It irks me to have to spend additional money on the M&P trigger, but I'm beginning to think that may be the only option.
 

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CCHolderinMaine:

At some point years ago (??) Browning chose to include a magazine safety on the Hi Power but today to sell it or any semi-auto with a magazine in California it MUST have a mag safety.

The Browning version is poorly done. It levers the action of the trigger off a lever that has to slide on the magazine body. It leaves the trigger feeling terrible.

I have a Hi Power clone that uses the same mag safety trigger. I found it horrible so I found a replacement trigger system at Brownells that eliminates the mag safety. The trigger is now acceptable.

I handled a new Browning derivation of the Hi Power at the SHOT show several years ago in front of a factory sales rep. and its trigger was absolutely terrible. I pointed it out to him and he had no concept (or faked it) that the trigger was bad.

Today, thanks to the California liberal nanny state control over hand guns, we'll not be able to buy any gun without a mag safety. But virtually every gun of mine has some trigger work done by me. They can't stop me from working on my own guns to make them the way I want them and the way they should be.

stev32k:

You may be asking too much from any tactical handgun. Some guns have triggers better than others out of the box but if you are real particular you may not find it in a caliber or with the ERGO's you desire. Your M&P (I believe) is a striker fired gun and they are much harder to get a good trigger feel compared to a sear and hammer gun like a 1911. Good luck in your search.

LDBennett
 
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