Need help in my arguments with lib acquaintences

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by hkruss, Apr 4, 2009.

  1. hkruss

    hkruss Active Member

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    I admit, up until last years elections, I was not very active in keeping up with political events or pro-actively supporting (except for voting) or engaging others in support of conservative principals and values. -Those days are over-
    Our current 'leaders' literally terrify me with the damage they are doing to our country. Now, more than ever, I realize the importance of doing everything I can to get the conservative message out. But, I need help.Here is what I ask of you.
    I have a pretty good grasp of the social issues and think I can argue those points effectively. But I am not clear on the financial issues. Can someone give a brief but concise list of the major spending b.o. & co. have done? I Know of TARP 1, TARP 2, the omnibus bill (what is that exactly?), the U.S. pledge towards the 1 trillion to the I.M.F., and the proposed record U.S. budget for next year.Am I missing others?
    It would be a great help if someone would list the amounts for all these spending programs and maybe a brief description of each. I want to have my facts in order. When I try to read up on these things, all the numbers and programs start running together in my mind. It's not that I'm too lazy to research it myself, it's just that I don't grasp it as easily or as quickly as some of you guys. So please, help me because I want to do my part in taking back our country.
    God, please save America.

    Kendall
     
  2. FJF0311

    FJF0311 New Member

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    Something a friend of mine said a while back, and I included it in a thread. Ask them,


    "Name me five things we are free to do without government regulation."

    When they start to sound like Obama without his TelePrompter,
    ask them "if we are so free, why can't they name five things?" And "why would you vote for people who would put more restrictions on us?"
     

  3. Vladimir

    Vladimir Active Member

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    When it comes to economics I am not super on top of things either because I hate economics and it is so complicated its like why even bother trying to learn a little bit about it?

    I take the position though, that I recently used in an debate with some libs in fact, that it doesn't matter IF the stimulus plans work and make the economy better. It isn't the right thing to do, and unfortunately sometimes doing the right thing is the harder way (oh wait all the time!). But nothing anyone says will change my mind, what the government is doing is NOT the right thing, regardless of if it is "good" for us or not!!!
     
  4. ponycar17

    ponycar17 Active Member

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    Do a search of my posts, especially with respect to replies to JDS. :rolleyes: I have to wonder if that guy really believes what he says, or if he starts arguments to get other folks to explain better what he really hopes to convey. I've wondered about that for a while. :confused:

    Only the latter posts in this link are relevant. The poster wanted to make comments about the south primarily. He quickly got lost like a child in the wilderness when the economic arguments came up.

    http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=51440

    Here's better explanation of the previous link's concepts.

    http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=51792

    And here's some talk about the tax burden, who's paying the taxes, how the tax cuts from 2001-2008 both grew wealth and increased tax burden on the wealthy while allowing it to shift off of the poor and middle class. The point is that even though the rich got huge tax cuts, they were very effective in growing wealth and simultaneously paying more into the tax base.

    http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=56886

    I might seem a bit arrogant in some of those posts but the arrogance comes from being pissed off that people do not take more interest in this stuff. :eek: I'm not an economist either but I do make it a hobby of comparing the various political ideologies with respect to economic realities (both Micro and Macro). Check your PMs as I'll send you a link to a website. :)
     
  5. CampingJosh

    CampingJosh Well-Known Member

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    Nerd! :D:D
     
  6. ponycar17

    ponycar17 Active Member

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    My wife calls me 'chief dork' but she's no better. She's a bean counter... :D;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2009
  7. Islandboy

    Islandboy New Member

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    Just ask the question "Why?" don't argue, inquire.
    Most Libs are in your face assertive types, anxious to spew forth the latest garbage they've inhaled.
    The Why? question, if asked at each successive step of their drivel will make them reach for the gun that isnt there (ha ha)
    It is all to do with reason and rational, assets they have not developed.
    Read in order to build up your own arsenal with which to refute and attack with, because while effective, Why is like nerve gas on them, while knowledge is like a patriot missile well aimed.
     
  8. jacksonco

    jacksonco New Member

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    If they are far left liberals you can not have any meaningfull discussion. Same thing with a far right conservative. One people become entrenched in there beliefs and unaceptable of new ideals the discussion is over. I believe in conservative ideals but am also a little open to some modderate liberal ideals. I dont accet everything I am told and don't expect everything I say to be accepted.

    Extreme idealism is not healthy. I am a conservative and a member of "The Heritage Foundation" and "The NRA" I vote mostly for consevative canidates and for a very few moderate liberal canidates that have some conservative ideals. I look for the BIG PICTURE of things and that is unachievable by one party rule or by any one ideal.

    We are getting into a real mess of things right now because we are essentially governed by one party with an extreme leftist leadership in place. We will not do well as a nation until balance is restored and the goverment starts leaning towards more conservative leadership. Our president is so far to the left he is entering the idealism of socialism. He and his administration are methodically taking power from the private sector and enforcing their ideals through economic black mail. This is a trend that has to be reversed in the mid term elections or the way our country has been goverend in the past will be no more. We will move from being a Republic to becoming a socialist ditatorship or worse yet a communist nation. It is frightening.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2009
  9. ponycar17

    ponycar17 Active Member

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    To that end, I did this to one of my wife's friends. She teaches courses at a well-known local University but nothing related to Economics. She's constantly telling me how relative everything is, and how my interpretation is just that; an interpretation.

    On New Year's Eve, we spent the night at a condo with these folks on the lake. The subject of Obama's economic policies came up. I told my opinion and then was told how I was spouting only one side of the argument and that she (the friend) had all the same economics classes I have had (actually one less than me and no financial or accounting courses but that's irrelevant). I asked her, "please tell me then how Obama's economic policies will bolster our economy using the micro and macroeconomic principles you learned in college." She got defensive, said she didn't want to talk about it and altogether left the conversation. I went to get another beverage. Point made... :D

    I had a coworker telling me how the poor and middle class were not helped by the tax cuts imposed by the Bush administration and how only the rich benefited. I asked if he had independently proven any of this. He admitted that he hadn't. I placed a copy of my now-infamous tax table comparison on his chair while he wasn't in his office. I asked the next day if he had read it. He said, "yes, that was interesting" and hasn't blabbed on the subject since. :D

    On another note hkruss, if you want to discuss or defend gun control policies with these folks, see the following references.

    http://www.gunfacts.info/
    http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
    http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/stop0584.pdf
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2009
  10. RunningOnMT

    RunningOnMT New Member

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    I have found that you can not convince a liberal of anything because they believe what they want to believe regardless of any evidence you can show them. My own brother and sisters wont talk politics with me anymore because they just don't want to know the truth. They have this preconceived notion about how things are and anything contrary to this puts them in a tailspin.
     
  11. ponycar17

    ponycar17 Active Member

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    Be careful with your discouragement ROMT. All liberals aren't bulletproof, protected by their false rhetoric. When in a public discussion with them, the one who spouts SPECIFIC data is generally perceived as the victor, regardless of the touchy-feely rhetoric spouted by the liberal in question. I've had that happen. Some liberal types won't discuss anything with me any more. It isn't because I get angry or raise my voice. It's because I have specific data to counter their stupid and poorly articulated arguments. They only have rhetoric and talking points. ;)

    When you attempt to combat rhetoric with rhetoric, no one wins. There's an old saying, "It's like fighting with a pig. You both get dirty, and the pig likes it..." Don't play by their rules. Debate with enormous specificity!!!! It will collapse their argument almost immediately. That means that you should be EXTRA diligent in staying abreast of current events to be effective. It's difficult but avoids the use of childish rhetoric that doesn't accomplish anything.

    Maybe I spend too much time memorizing these facts?... :confused:
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2009
  12. shuttle28

    shuttle28 New Member

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    hkruss:
    all of the above and many more, Honestly, there are way to many numbers to remember to use them all in correct order, even for us that have been living this stuff all our lives.
    however, here are a few more for you. when they rip the bush tax cuts for only helping the rich, ask them several things, 1. how many poor people do they know that sign paychecks. 2. how will it help them if the rich would be made poor with higher taxes, will they somehow get some of the money? 3. if the rich have to pay higher taxes, who is going to buy the new boats, airplanes, high end cars, etc. also, how many sevice employees will lose their jobs cause the rich won't need their service any longer. and on and on.

    Ask them to explain the policies obama was for which made them vote for him. the important word here is for, not against.

    Ask them why the community reinvestment act was initiated under the clinton administration. this was the act which made the banks and lending institutions make bad loans, this happened in the early 90's. it just took this long for it to colapse totally.

    Obamas name showed up as a representative for minorities on court docets wishing to sue Citi-corp I beleive in 93 or 94. for turning them down for mortgages allegedly for discrimination. the real reason was they had no income, but that got buried and Citi-corp caved just like so many others under presure of groups such as accorn.
     
  13. hkruss

    hkruss Active Member

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    My thanks for all the 'ammo'!