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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited by Moderator)
I like to refer to this as my Stalingrad Special. A Bring back from my Dad. (32yr Lifer ABN CSM WWII, Korea, Vietnam) part of his Collection. He knew enough to only pick up Historically Significant Arms.

This is a 1942 Izvehsk M38 Mosin Nagant Carbine. In the White, rough tool marks and and unfinished stock. (No Stain, no varnish etc.) Plain wood. (Birch?) I really wish this one could talk, and tell me where it has been. Stalingrad? 1942, rushed out the door? "Here take this."

Unfortunately by the time it was left to me, (I 1st saw it) my Dad had had multiple Strokes and could no longer communicate, although he was still sharp as a Tack. (So) I do not know if it came from Korea, or Vietnam. (He was in the Pacific in WWII, after lying about his age and getting in at 17.)

This was one, that I posted about in my MILSURP SHTF reply. (I've also got a very nice M44. (Basically same as this, but with a folding bayonet.) The M38 is rather unique in Soviet Arms, in that they were big on the bayonet. This is one that was issued/designed without the Bayonet.

I understand through research, that these were highly sought after and prized in Stalingrad over the full length 91/30 for the close in fighting.

Mike has seen me talk/post about this one. 1st photo he has seen of it.

241472
 

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Nice! Best part is it's a bring back from Dad! An M38 is one variant I never added to the herd, never found one that wasn't overpriced, or counter bored. I did, on a complete fluke, find a rare, and unissued Polish 91/38 for a fraction of what it was worth. The seller thought it was a M44 with the bayo removed. They were built by the Poles on Hex receiver M91's that Russia gave to Poland after the war. I have two M44's, one Polish, and one Hungarian, that were unissued as well. Mosinitus is an addiction!:)
 

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We have a Chinese Type 53 Mosin - essentially same as the Soviet M44 - in our collection. Better half thinks it's "cute" (her term), but then she hasn't fired it just yet. Muzzle flash can probably be seen from low orbit. :)
 

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The model 91 or the most common surplus variant the last updated to a universal arsenal modification standard the model 91/30 (91 denoting 1891 for year of acceptance and official adoption by czarist imperial Russia - 30 denoting 1930 for year almost four decades of production variations and improvements or ersatz conflict adaptations were force match modified to a newer universal standard by the USSR)...

Is the full length 3 line long or original length front line infantry specific battle rifles designation and it excepts the standard hinge swing point trifoil fencing profile socket bayonet that fits around the outside surface of the muzzle end of the barrel - no separate distinct under barrel lug...(hinge on carbine and permanently fixed to gun / removable and reversible attached on full length model)

Pre revolutionary czarist two headed screaming chicken receiver crest variants or hex receiver variants or American contract run variants or PU scoped sniper variants or finish capture rebuild examples are the golden ticket most sought-after examples IMHO.

The model 44 or 1944 production type is the shorter length barrel shorter range capacity shorter sigh radius true purpose built carbine initially designed for 2ND tier support units that were likely to encounter enemy infantry - artillery or cavalry or engineers or fusiliers or fortification construction and defense units (dragoons not included or explained here)

The true carbine also excepts the above referenced bayonet - it's a gun that is shorter and lighter and easier to carry especially if not on foot but in a vehicle or transport or on a horse or mule or in a wagon.

The odd as socks on a duck model 38 or model 1938 variant is a short rifle. The short rifle was intended for third line units or line of support personal. Communication troops or cooks or bands or POL point or mechanics or vehicle recovery or corpse collection or pow guards or supply units of most types.

Those unlikely or less likely to encounter first or second line or tier enemy infantry units. No method was provided to attach and carry or afix and attack with a bayonet as a materials and cost and weight saving measure.

You will most likely never see a mosin nagant trifoil fencing style (see US 1903 Springfield rod style spring loaded bayonet for comparison) bayonet frog or scabbard or sheath or cover or leather carrying accoutrements or web gear attachment point hardware.

The bayonets were carried attached to the rifle backwards against the stock for carry or forward of the barrel muzzle attachment appointment socket for advance or attack only.

Mike
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Finally got my last picture to load. One can clearly see the hinge mounted bayonet folded back alongside the forestock on the M44. I also posted them side by side so one can see the difference in the unfinished stock/finished stock and one with blueing.

Curious - has anyone ever encountered a MN like my M38? In the White and with an unfinished, unstained stock? I beleive this is what lead my Dad to pick it up.
 

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Ken...

What is the year of production and which arsenal mark is indicated???

On the stock do you have a rectangle box with a diagonal line through it - on the butt stock somewhere???

Have you had the buttplate off or dismounted the metal from the furniture to expose hidden proofs or stamps or witness marks???

241570



34,000 plus made in 1939
160,000 plus made in 1940
420,00 plus in 1941
687,426 plus in 1942
978,000 plus in 1943
167,000 plus in 1944 (due to M44 production) Tula carbines are very rare.

2,200 minus were captured by the Finns and in their arsenals after WWII

After the war, the M38's were rearsenaled and all the parts were mixed on them. So it is hard to find a "intact" M38 will all the right items on it unless it was captured by the Finn's. The Finn's did little (if any thing) to their M38's after the war. So they pretty much still wear the same clothes that they were born in. Also no new shellac on them. Just old stuff here and there.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
1942 Izvehsk. (Triangle with an arrow in it.) No rectangular box with a diagonal in it on the stock. All #'s match. No I have not dismounted the wood furniture from the metal. I am not a big fan of that. In addition to buggering up the screw heads, (potentially) wood to metal fit will never be the same as "Original."

I wish my Dad could have given me some info as to where and when He picked it up. At least I got to spend the last 6-8 mo. of his life, helping him after I moved down from up N. All his bring backs were wrapped in oiled sheets, and I had not seen them until the very end, when he took me down to where they were, and showed me he wanted me to unwrap them. Arisaka's Mum intact, the M38, a Nambu type 14, etc. etc. I only got the M38, the Nambu, and a CZ27, purchased new by my Dad in Berlin in 1949. Others went to my Brother and BIL.
 

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Nice Carbine! I had an M44 that was a piece of junk. Huge fireball muzzle flash and couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with it. The M38s looked better to me, but I never bought one. I bought the M44 on the 'Coolness Factor' because of the bayonet. The coolness wore off fast and I traded it off. Only real Ruskie I have now is a 1954 SKS.
 

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Curious - has anyone ever encountered a MN like my M38? In the White and with an unfinished, unstained stock? I beleive this is what lead my Dad to pick it up.
I've seen SKS and M44's from VN with no finish left on them. Jungle humidity rust, and rubbing it off. Ken, that might be one you want to take out of the stock, and make sure it doesn't have any orange cancer growing underneath. I've seen plenty of Mausers that saw service in the Brazilian jungles that look clean, but under the wood line, look like the surface of the moon.

Mosins were sighted in with the bayonet on, or extended on the M44's. On some M44's, point of impact doesn't change, folded or extended. On others it does. I had near a dozen at one time, that I tested this on. The most extreme was a well used Hungarian that would hit the ten ring at 50yrds, but shoot 14" left with the bayo extended!
 
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