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Okay, Here's Another One -

4K views 26 replies 7 participants last post by  polishshooter 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I like to refer to this as my Stalingrad Special. A Bring back from my Dad. (32yr Lifer ABN CSM WWII, Korea, Vietnam) part of his Collection. He knew enough to only pick up Historically Significant Arms.

This is a 1942 Izvehsk M38 Mosin Nagant Carbine. In the White, rough tool marks and and unfinished stock. (No Stain, no varnish etc.) Plain wood. (Birch?) I really wish this one could talk, and tell me where it has been. Stalingrad? 1942, rushed out the door? "Here take this."

Unfortunately by the time it was left to me, (I 1st saw it) my Dad had had multiple Strokes and could no longer communicate, although he was still sharp as a Tack. (So) I do not know if it came from Korea, or Vietnam. (He was in the Pacific in WWII, after lying about his age and getting in at 17.)

This was one, that I posted about in my MILSURP SHTF reply. (I've also got a very nice M44. (Basically same as this, but with a folding bayonet.) The M38 is rather unique in Soviet Arms, in that they were big on the bayonet. This is one that was issued/designed without the Bayonet.

I understand through research, that these were highly sought after and prized in Stalingrad over the full length 91/30 for the close in fighting.

Mike has seen me talk/post about this one. 1st photo he has seen of it.

241472
 
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#4 ·
Nice! Best part is it's a bring back from Dad! An M38 is one variant I never added to the herd, never found one that wasn't overpriced, or counter bored. I did, on a complete fluke, find a rare, and unissued Polish 91/38 for a fraction of what it was worth. The seller thought it was a M44 with the bayo removed. They were built by the Poles on Hex receiver M91's that Russia gave to Poland after the war. I have two M44's, one Polish, and one Hungarian, that were unissued as well. Mosinitus is an addiction!:)
 
#8 · (Edited)
The model 91 or the most common surplus variant the last updated to a universal arsenal modification standard the model 91/30 (91 denoting 1891 for year of acceptance and official adoption by czarist imperial Russia - 30 denoting 1930 for year almost four decades of production variations and improvements or ersatz conflict adaptations were force match modified to a newer universal standard by the USSR)...

Is the full length 3 line long or original length front line infantry specific battle rifles designation and it excepts the standard hinge swing point trifoil fencing profile socket bayonet that fits around the outside surface of the muzzle end of the barrel - no separate distinct under barrel lug...(hinge on carbine and permanently fixed to gun / removable and reversible attached on full length model)

Pre revolutionary czarist two headed screaming chicken receiver crest variants or hex receiver variants or American contract run variants or PU scoped sniper variants or finish capture rebuild examples are the golden ticket most sought-after examples IMHO.

The model 44 or 1944 production type is the shorter length barrel shorter range capacity shorter sigh radius true purpose built carbine initially designed for 2ND tier support units that were likely to encounter enemy infantry - artillery or cavalry or engineers or fusiliers or fortification construction and defense units (dragoons not included or explained here)

The true carbine also excepts the above referenced bayonet - it's a gun that is shorter and lighter and easier to carry especially if not on foot but in a vehicle or transport or on a horse or mule or in a wagon.

The odd as socks on a duck model 38 or model 1938 variant is a short rifle. The short rifle was intended for third line units or line of support personal. Communication troops or cooks or bands or POL point or mechanics or vehicle recovery or corpse collection or pow guards or supply units of most types.

Those unlikely or less likely to encounter first or second line or tier enemy infantry units. No method was provided to attach and carry or afix and attack with a bayonet as a materials and cost and weight saving measure.

You will most likely never see a mosin nagant trifoil fencing style (see US 1903 Springfield rod style spring loaded bayonet for comparison) bayonet frog or scabbard or sheath or cover or leather carrying accoutrements or web gear attachment point hardware.

The bayonets were carried attached to the rifle backwards against the stock for carry or forward of the barrel muzzle attachment appointment socket for advance or attack only.

Mike
 
#9 ·
Finally got my last picture to load. One can clearly see the hinge mounted bayonet folded back alongside the forestock on the M44. I also posted them side by side so one can see the difference in the unfinished stock/finished stock and one with blueing.

Curious - has anyone ever encountered a MN like my M38? In the White and with an unfinished, unstained stock? I beleive this is what lead my Dad to pick it up.
 
#13 ·
Curious - has anyone ever encountered a MN like my M38? In the White and with an unfinished, unstained stock? I beleive this is what lead my Dad to pick it up.
I've seen SKS and M44's from VN with no finish left on them. Jungle humidity rust, and rubbing it off. Ken, that might be one you want to take out of the stock, and make sure it doesn't have any orange cancer growing underneath. I've seen plenty of Mausers that saw service in the Brazilian jungles that look clean, but under the wood line, look like the surface of the moon.

Mosins were sighted in with the bayonet on, or extended on the M44's. On some M44's, point of impact doesn't change, folded or extended. On others it does. I had near a dozen at one time, that I tested this on. The most extreme was a well used Hungarian that would hit the ten ring at 50yrds, but shoot 14" left with the bayo extended!
 
#10 ·
Ken...

What is the year of production and which arsenal mark is indicated???

On the stock do you have a rectangle box with a diagonal line through it - on the butt stock somewhere???

Have you had the buttplate off or dismounted the metal from the furniture to expose hidden proofs or stamps or witness marks???

241570


34,000 plus made in 1939
160,000 plus made in 1940
420,00 plus in 1941
687,426 plus in 1942
978,000 plus in 1943
167,000 plus in 1944 (due to M44 production) Tula carbines are very rare.

2,200 minus were captured by the Finns and in their arsenals after WWII

After the war, the M38's were rearsenaled and all the parts were mixed on them. So it is hard to find a "intact" M38 will all the right items on it unless it was captured by the Finn's. The Finn's did little (if any thing) to their M38's after the war. So they pretty much still wear the same clothes that they were born in. Also no new shellac on them. Just old stuff here and there.
 
#11 ·
1942 Izvehsk. (Triangle with an arrow in it.) No rectangular box with a diagonal in it on the stock. All #'s match. No I have not dismounted the wood furniture from the metal. I am not a big fan of that. In addition to buggering up the screw heads, (potentially) wood to metal fit will never be the same as "Original."

I wish my Dad could have given me some info as to where and when He picked it up. At least I got to spend the last 6-8 mo. of his life, helping him after I moved down from up N. All his bring backs were wrapped in oiled sheets, and I had not seen them until the very end, when he took me down to where they were, and showed me he wanted me to unwrap them. Arisaka's Mum intact, the M38, a Nambu type 14, etc. etc. I only got the M38, the Nambu, and a CZ27, purchased new by my Dad in Berlin in 1949. Others went to my Brother and BIL.
 
#12 ·
Nice Carbine! I had an M44 that was a piece of junk. Huge fireball muzzle flash and couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with it. The M38s looked better to me, but I never bought one. I bought the M44 on the 'Coolness Factor' because of the bayonet. The coolness wore off fast and I traded it off. Only real Ruskie I have now is a 1954 SKS.
 
#15 ·
Thanks Cling. I discovered that site for info. on Mosin Nagants, Years ago.

Whatchu got Brother? Any Carbines? (My bent.) Show and tell.
 
#16 ·
I sold off some before the move, but I kept one M38, one M44, half a dozen 91/30 and one Nagant revolver.
Sold a bunch of spam cans and wood cases of ammo and now it has skyrocketed in price of course :(
I have one 91/30 with the Archangel stock conversion, it makes for a pretty nice shooting rifle. The detachable mag actually works.
I got my start in guns with milsurp, and still some of my favorites to shoot.
The Mosin carbines are shoulder killers though, only thing I have that hits harder are my Steyr Mannlicher 8x56 rifles.
 
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#17 ·
All M38s saw action in WWII while fewer M44s did. It took me about 10 until I found one that would shoot 2-3 MOA. Generally all M44s I’ve owned would do that, regardless of condition. Never found one that wasn’t counterbored. But the 38s we’re definitely handier than the 44s.

The main reason Mosins are such fun is the lowest sight setting is 100 meters. Even the 100 Arshini on the 91s is usable for plinking. Most Mausers and other milsurps only go down to 200-300m, tough to plink with, wastes a lot of ammo figuring how low to hold...😉

I let all my 38s go, but came real close to buying one I found at a shop a couple of months ago. He had $299 on it and refused my $200 offer. Probably telling him his price was right on when I first handled it before I realized I wanted it didn’t help the negotiations 😎. It was gone when I went back.

I miss the $89 M38 $59 M44 days...😉
 
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#19 ·
My M38 was one of my Dad's Bring backs. It will never be sold. Finding one for $299 nowadays? That is a Smokin' Good deal. I have been watching auctions quite a bit of late, (I just sold 5, have 4 more coming up or up now.) Even regular 91/30's are in the $450+ range.
 
#20 ·
How about an SA proof marked and stamped sweet little carbine???

Great - awesome - who doesn't appreciate the quality and accuracy and well executed Finnish SA build or rework carbines - a few of you have one and the rest of you want one urgently if it should cross your path...

But wait - an SA marked Finnish Italian carcano carbine???

You must be kidding - how did that happen???

Auction value - collect ability - desirability - rarity - proof of existence or historical context???

If only both carbines could talk...

 

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#22 ·
I'm racking my brain. It looks like a 1938 date on it so it being a WWI capture resold through the Depression era European arms trade that makes the most sense wouldn't work. Hmmm.

The odds of it being a battlefield capture by the Russians from some of the token Italian troops fighting alongside the Germans that later was captured by the Finns also takes a leap of faith, it would still have had to travel a long way.

The Finns were never technically allied with or had much to do with the Italians. The only thing I can possibly conjecture is MAYBE it was "regifted" from Germany to Finland, Italy did give carcanos out like candy, like they gave a lot to Japan. The Germans used wierd rifles for the Einzentruppen behind the lines rounding up the Jews and undesirables so they could use KARs at the front, so it's possible they got some, and pawned them off on their "new" friends, so that's my single wild ass guess?

The SA was pretty standard, the Finns stamped everything, so all it proves it it found itself owned by the Finnish army and spent time in a Finn Armory at some stage in its life. Doesn't mean it was actually used by them.
 
#21 ·
Outside of a few M44 barreled actions, and a project M44 scout rifle that didn’t turn out (yet) I am down to only 3 MNs from the 125-150 I have owned: the Original Polish 1952 M44, the Polish 1952 sporter with the ATi stock, cantilever scope mount and the custom turned down bolt which turned out well, and a sweet Sako M39. A young man desperate for cash to buy an upper for his AR practically begged me to buy the Sako at a show a year ago for $400 after I told him it was worth $5-600....didn’t need nor want it and needed the cash for another purchase I had committed to but I couldn’t let it get away, and I got lucky and sold something to get back the cash I needed for the other purchase and now I’m pretty happy how it turned out...
 
#23 ·
Wow. As much as I hate Wikipedia because a lot of stuff is not sourced, it says Italy sent like 95000 Carcano rifles to Finland during the “Winter War.” But says they were in 6.5 not 7.35. And full length rifles not carbines. Hmmmm.

Makes no sense why Italy would want to antagonize Russia in 1940? And Finland was “hands off” officially towards the Axis, at least in 1940, but then they were accepting aid from any one. Like their top Fighter plane for the Winter War and the “Continuation War” were the US Brewster Buffalos they “borrowed” (actually “stole”) from Sweden who bought them from the US...
 
#25 ·
Wow. As much as I hate Wikipedia because a lot of stuff is not sourced, it says Italy sent like 95000 Carcano rifles to Finland during the "Winter War." But says they were in 6.5 not 7.35. And full length rifles not carbines. Hmmmm.

Makes no sense why Italy would want to antagonize Russia in 1940? And Finland was "hands off" officially towards the Axis, at least in 1940, but then they were accepting aid from any one. Like their top Fighter plane for the Winter War and the "Continuation War" were the US Brewster Buffalos they "borrowed" (actually "stole") from Sweden who bought them from the US...
I cannot as of yet nail down the specific details but...

It would appear that there is solid forensic documented archival evidence supporting that the AXIS powers through the auspices of Italy many Italian type Mo. 1891-38 variant mannlicher carcano rifles and carbines of both primary proprietary chamberings were supplied to Finland direct from the arsenals and production facilities brand new as if supplied by an export contract production run order during the Winter (1939-1940) and continuation (1941-1944) wars. It has been noted that these can usually be identified by the famous Fin army property / arsenal acceptance Mark "SA" within a bold outline square border. Model 38 carbines with bayonet and type I optics enhanced sniper rifles were noted along with a high accompanying percentage of the integral type 1928 pattern self contained grenade launcher unit - all 3 items apparently receiving high praise from the Fin acceptance panel and concomitant inspector / and that the 3 prices in question had much popularity amongst the troops for flawless performance during winter war and arctic circle deep cold combat conditions.

It's news to me as I have never seen one before or even heard one mentioned in passing or remarked upon in reference works or rumored in historical speculative fiction - and while I will dig further I have no knowledge of numbers transferred into / unto Finnish hands and even less knowledge of possible post war disposition (deep storage after arsenal or depot level inspection or repurpose for gendarme or reserve or colonial issue or disposal on the commercial market or use as youth trainers or home gaurd and last reserve unit TO&E issue...

I have to imagine that several expert somebodies here or elsewhere must know the full story and details - certainly more data than I now possess...

Please let us know any facts or opinions or theories as I was clueless for the most part...

As curious as Kens carbine in the raw seemingly issued or liberated as incomplete or unfinished - both interesting salient points of interest for study and questions...
 
#26 ·
The M91 was used in both rifle (fucile) and shorter-barreled carbine (moschetto) form by most Italian troops during World War I and by Italian and some German forces during World War II. The rifle was also used during the Winter War by Finland, and again by regular and irregular forces in Syria, Libya, Tunisia and Algeria during various postwar conflicts in those countries.

After reports of inadequate performance at both short and long ranges[2][3] during the campaigns in Italian North Africa (1924-1934), and the Second Italo-Abyssinian War (1934), the Italian army introduced a new short rifle in 1938, the Modello 1938, together with a new cartridge in 7.35×51mm caliber. In addition to the slightly larger caliber, Italian ordnance designers introduced a spitzer-type bullet for the new cartridge, with the tip filled with aluminum to produce an unstable (tumbling) projectile upon impact in soft tissue (a design most likely copied from the .303 British Mk VII bullet).

Approximately 94,500 7.35mm Modello 1938 rifles were shipped to Finland, where they were known as Terni carbines (from the Terni stamp with the royal crown, the logo or seal of the Regia fabbrica d'armi di Terni arsenal where they were manufactured).[5] They were primarily used by security and line-of-communications troops during the Winter War of 1939-1940, though some frontline troops were issued the weapon.[5] According to reports, the Finns disliked the rifle.[5] With its non-standard 7.35 mm caliber, it was problematic to keep frontline troops supplied with good quality, or any ammunition at all, and its non-adjustable rear sight (fixed for 200 m) made it ill-suited for use in precision shooting at the varied ranges encountered by Finnish soldiers during the conflict.[5] Despite this, it's worth noticing that the Finns themselves modified the fixed optics on the rifle to operate from a range of 200 m to only 150 m.[6] Whenever possible, Finnish soldiers discarded the weapon in favor of rifles acquired on the battlefield,[5] including standard models of captured Soviet-made Mosin-Nagant rifles. The latter had the advantage of using commonly available 7.62×54mmR ammunition. By the outbreak of the Continuation War, the remaining Mod. 1938 7.35 mm rifles were issued to the Finnish Navy, as well as anti-aircraft, coastal defense, and other second-line (home front) troops.[5]

After World War II, Italy replaced its Carcano rifles first with British Lee-Enfields and then with the US .30 caliber (7.62 mm) M1 Garand semi-automatic rifle,[7] which the Italians labeled the 'Model 1952 (M52). Finland sold all of its approximately 74,000 remaining 7.35 mm M91/38 Carcano rifles on the surplus market. As a consequence, large quantities of surplus Carcanos were sold in the United States and Canada beginning in the 1950s. In Italy, the Polizia di Stato and the Carabinieri retained the Moschetto 38 TS,[7] retiring it from service in 1981. Captured 6.5mm Carcano rifles were used by Greek forces post-war, with ammunition supplied by U.S. Western Cartridge Co. Some were also converted to 6.5×54mm Mannlicher-Schönauer, one of the standard cartridges of the Greek military at the time.


The remaining Mod. 1938 7.35 mm rifles were issued to the Finnish Navy, as well as anti-aircraft, coastal defense, artillery, fixed position defensive or fortress lager troops, and other second-line (home front) troops.[5]

Italian Misfit

Some interesting data worth reading and review - though to me pricing in the $425.00 - $625.00 range would seem ridiculous but stranger things have happened...

Any comments post data dump review and link reads would be appreciated...

Ken I am still digging for answers related to your fathers piece but have come up empty so far / to date.

Mike
 
#27 ·
It’s not like there’s a lot of literature on the Winter War, it was over rather quickly and most Finns were fighting the Russians not writing about them , but there is some about the Continuation War.

Now it’s not like I’ve read too much either, but 1. I’ve never heard about the carcanos and never saw any pictures of Finn Soldiers or Guard with them. There are pics with them with Swede Mausers and carbines and Simo Haya used one with a scope for a few kills but went back to the nagant. Main reason he gave was not enough hitting power with the 6.5.

You would have to think that any widespread use of the carcanos by the Finns would’ve have had more documentation? 🤔
 
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