[Bryce Parmely]

Hello everyone. My grandpa passed away recently and left a very large collection of guns to go through. I stumbled upon this drilling and wanted to know more about it. I have read a few posts about them on here and figured this was the best place to find out what exactly I have. Looking for price, dating, and any other information about this interesting gun. I plan on having the rifle barrel slugged next week to see what caliber.

 

[Marblekonus]

I plan on having the rifle barrel slugged next week to see what caliber.

118,35 = 0.340inch
16 in a circle = 16 gauge, 65mm

 

[howlnmad]

I can't help, but that is a beautiful drilling gun. More help will be along soon.

 

[ms6852]

We've got a guy on the forum @sharps4590 that will give you the info you need. Stick around he will be here soon if he is not testing knew loads, hunting, or doing honey do's.

 

[sharps4590]

Awwwww…..a cool, old, side lever hammer drilling with a dolls head extension!!! I do love hammer drillings. A question before I tell you what I see. Is there a name in a banner on the rib? As you did not mention a name, I assume not? No biggy, there is lots of unmarked, pre-WWI and pre-WWII German firearms floating around. I have a couple.

Dat of manufacture is before 1920 I believe. I would guess between 1900 and immediately after WWI. Those proofs are largely from the 1891-93 proof law. I can never remember which proof house, Suhl or Zella-Mehlis stamped the bore diameter "118/35". That SHOULD be the 9.3 X 72R cartridge but to be certain a chamber cast should be made as well as slugging the bore. One thing to be aware of; though 9.3 is .366 caliber a great many 9.3 X 72R rifles are tightly bored and are more than happy with.358 bullets. That's just another reason to slug the bore and make a chamber cast.

On the rifle barrel, the crown over "G" simply denotes a rifled barrel. The crown over "U" stands for a thorough visual examination. If that is a script "K" in the circle on the rifle barrel, it MIGHT be that the barrels were made by one of the many Kelber gunsmiths.

Shotgun barrels, the crown over "U" is the same. Crown over "S" denotes a shotgun barrel and the crown over "W" means it is a choked barrel but, the amount of choke will have to be measured. The right barrel is probably cylinder bore. The circled 16 is as Marblekonus mentioned, 16 bore with 2 1/2 in. chambers.

I don't see a crown over "N" which would denote Nitro Proof, (smokeless powder). So, unless there is some indication on Nitro proofing, you have a drilling that is only proofed for black powder.

I can't quite make out what is in front of "FLUSSTAHL" but that means 'fluid steel' and the word in front of it is more than likely the maker of the barrel steel.

Value....there's a spread, obviously. Bore condition is important and you didn't mention any of them. Without seeing the gun personally, from $1200 to $1800 and that's just one man's opinion.

 

[Bryce Parmely]

Awwwww…..a cool, old, side lever hammer drilling with a dolls head extension!!! I do love hammer drillings. A question before I tell you what I see. Is there a name in a banner on the rib? As you did not mention a name, I assume not? No biggy, there is lots of unmarked, pre-WWI and pre-WWII German firearms floating around. I have a couple.

Dat of manufacture is before 1920 I believe. I would guess between 1900 and immediately after WWI. Those proofs are largely from the 1891-93 proof law. I can never remember which proof house, Suhl or Zella-Mehlis stamped the bore diameter "118/35". That SHOULD be the 9.3 X 72R cartridge but to be certain a chamber cast should be made as well as slugging the bore. One thing to be aware of; though 9.3 is .366 caliber a great many 9.3 X 72R rifles are tightly bored and are more than happy with.358 bullets. That's just another reason to slug the bore and make a chamber cast.

On the rifle barrel, the crown over "G" simply denotes a rifled barrel. The crown over "U" stands for a thorough visual examination. If that is a script "K" in the circle on the rifle barrel, it MIGHT be that the barrels were made by one of the many Kelber gunsmiths.

Shotgun barrels, the crown over "U" is the same. Crown over "S" denotes a shotgun barrel and the crown over "W" means it is a choked barrel but, the amount of choke will have to be measured. The right barrel is probably cylinder bore. The circled 16 is as Marblekonus mentioned, 16 bore with 2 1/2 in. chambers.

I don't see a crown over "N" which would denote Nitro Proof, (smokeless powder). So, unless there is some indication on Nitro proofing, you have a drilling that is only proofed for black powder.

I can't quite make out what is in front of "FLUSSTAHL" but that means 'fluid steel' and the word in front of it is more than likely the maker of the barrel steel.

Value....there's a spread, obviously. Bore condition is important and you didn't mention any of them. Without seeing the gun personally, from $1200 to $1800 and that's just one man's opinion.

Awesome! Thank you for all the great info! Prima is the first word in front of flussstahl. And I didn’t see any name anywhere on the barrel. It is a M or a W on the the barrel not a k. If that helps any. Thanks again!

 

[sharps4590]

Ok. I thought it might be "Prima" but just couldn't make it out. That's "Prime Fluid Steel", good stuff. No sir, it being an "M" or "W" isn't an initial I recognize. If that is the mark of the barrel maker, there's a slug of German 'smiths whose last name begins with those letters. I assume then that there is no crown over "N" or the word "Nitro" in either block letters or script letters? If not, then it's a BP gun.

 

[Bryce Parmely]

Ok. I thought it might be "Prima" but just couldn't make it out. That's "Prime Fluid Steel", good stuff. No sir, it being an "M" or "W" isn't an initial I recognize. If that is the mark of the barrel maker, there's a slug of German 'smiths whose last name begins with those letters. I assume then that there is no crown over "N" or the word "Nitro" in either block letters or script letters? If not, then it's a BP gun.

Ahh ok. There is no n or nitro on it. Is there a big market for guns like these? He had over 100 guns but only one that was like this.

 

[sharps4590]

Well, not really. There's quite a few out there on the various auction and for sale sites and there's a dealer in Galesburg, Ill. who always has several. They're pretty much a niche' market firearm. I assume you know they were developed in Germany/Austria/Switzerland back in the late mid 1800's. Hunting there was and is considerably different in central Europe than it is here. They were practicing their form of conservation when there was still 60 million buffalo on the Great Plains. Game keepers used drillings extensively. As they were making their rounds of the revier if they saw something they thought needed culled or a predator that needed killed they had whatever type of firearm they needed at immediate disposal. Hoch seat hunting often offered shots at several different kinds of game and a drilling offered the same versatility to the hunter as to the gamekeeper. I don't think many in the US have much need for that versatility and, in a lot of sates, it's illegal to carry a firearm capable of utilizing more than one type of ammunition. It isn't that way where I live and more so if I'm hunting on my own property. In one of my drillings I have installed an "einstecklauf", (what we would call an insert), in 22LR in the right shotgun barrel. So equipped, I have a 16 bore shotgun, the 22LR and the bottom rifle barrel is a 9.3 X 75R Nimrod. It is a Thieme & Schlegelmilch, hammer drilling. I carry that drilling a lot. I'll post a picture of it....that I am certain everyone is tired of seeing.

 

[howlnmad]

Well, not really. There's quite a few out there on the various auction and for sale sites and there's a dealer in Galesburg, Ill. who always has several. They're pretty much a niche' market firearm. I assume you know they were developed in Germany/Austria/Switzerland back in the late mid 1800's. Hunting there was and is considerably different in central Europe than it is here. They were practicing their form of conservation when there was still 60 million buffalo on the Great Plains. Game keepers used drillings extensively. As they were making their rounds of the revier if they saw something they thought needed culled or a predator that needed killed they had whatever type of firearm they needed at immediate disposal. Hoch seat hunting often offered shots at several different kinds of game and a drilling offered the same versatility to the hunter as to the gamekeeper. I don't think many in the US have much need for that versatility and, in a lot of sates, it's illegal to carry a firearm capable of utilizing more than one type of ammunition. It isn't that way where I live and more so if I'm hunting on my own property. In one of my drillings I have installed an "einstecklauf", (what we would call an insert), in 22LR in the right shotgun barrel. So equipped, I have a 16 bore shotgun, the 22LR and the bottom rifle barrel is a 9.3 X 75R Nimrod. It is a Thieme & Schlegelmilch, hammer drilling. I carry that drilling a lot. I'll post a picture of it....that I am certain everyone is tired of seeing.

View attachment 220644

View attachment 220646

From this angle, that primer looks like it's sitting a bit high .

 

[sharps4590]

The rifle cartridge howling? Yes sir, it does. As many times as I've looked at and posted that picture I never noticed that. I assure you it isn't.

Bryce, the more I look at your drilling I think it possible it might be a Sauer & Sohn. They made a bunch of side lever drillings and the fences remind me a great deal of several S&S doubles/drillings I've seen. Those fences are so elegant as to be unmistakable.

Also, would it be too much trouble to take a picture of the face of the standing breech? I'd like to see how big the firing pins and their holes are.

 

[grcsat]

I too keep thinking it may be a Sauer & Sohn.
There are several old drillings that look so simular , right down to the side lock lever.

 

[Bryce Parmely]

The rifle cartridge howling? Yes sir, it does. As many times as I've looked at and posted that picture I never noticed that. I assure you it isn't.

Bryce, the more I look at your drilling I think it possible it might be a Sauer & Sohn. They made a bunch of side lever drillings and the fences remind me a great deal of several S&S doubles/drillings I've seen. Those fences are so elegant as to be unmistakable.

Also, would it be too much trouble to take a picture of the face of the standing breech? I'd like to see how big the firing pins and their holes are.

I hope this is what you are looking for. Still learning all of the terminology. I also added some pictures of the barrels

The rifle cartridge howling? Yes sir, it does. As many times as I've looked at and posted that picture I never noticed that. I assure you it isn't.

Bryce, the more I look at your drilling I think it possible it might be a Sauer & Sohn. They made a bunch of side lever drillings and the fences remind me a great deal of several S&S doubles/drillings I've seen. Those fences are so elegant as to be unmistakable.

Also, would it be too much trouble to take a picture of the face of the standing breech? I'd like to see how big the firing pins and their holes are.

I hope this is what you are looking for. Still learning all of the terminology. I also added some pictures of the barrels

 

[sharps4590]

I hope you don't think I'm nuts because I wanted to see the firing pins and their holes. Black Powder firearms have quite a bit bigger firing pins than smokeless firearms. Yours is definitely for BP.

What happens, unless you load using Trail Boss or some other low pressure smokeless powder, is the bigger, BP firing pins and their attendant holes in the standing breech, allow the primer metal to flow back around the firing pin and into the holes. That in itself doesn't mean pressures are necessarily too high but, it does make the firearm difficult to open and needlessly wears on the pins and the holes. A firing pin can be broken and you have to have one made or make it yourself and fit it. You aren't going to order one from Brownell's. SOMETIMES a fella can cock the piece, pull the trigger and it will drive the primer off the pin....and sometimes it doesn't. Trail Boss powder or black powder always eliminates the difficulty.

 

[Marblekonus]

They

as the cartridge:

 

[sharps4590]

Great pictures Marble!!

Bryce, speaking of pictures, allow me to compliment you on your photographic ability. I would have to take 5,000 pictures to get that many good ones. I'm impressed.

 

[Bryce Parmely]

Great pictures Marble!!

Bryce, speaking of pictures, allow me to compliment you on your photographic ability. I would have to take 5,000 pictures to get that many good ones. I'm impressed.

Haha thanks! I’ll contribute it to the new iPhone. So this past weekend I went and found my grandpas old list of guns and I believe I found this drilling. It is second on the list. I tried using gun blue book and want sure which one it would be.

 

[sharps4590]

The Bluebook is a complete and utter waste of time and especially so on old, foreign firearms. Prima Flusstahl is not the model. That is the steel the barrel is made from. Ferlach is a town in Austria that is a gun making center like Suhl or Zella-Mehlis or, the old Connecticut River valley in the US used to be, nothing more. It's not a make or model or anything else. Forget about a "Model" on those pre-war European and British firearms. That concept, such as Americans think of a model number or name, did not exist except in very rare cases by major makers.. You darn sure aren't going to find out ANYTHING about that drilling in ANY American published book of values...period. It does not exist. I wonder how Grandpa got the Ferlach, Austria information? Those are German proofs before the 1912-1913 German Proof law, not Austrian proof marks.

Check you PM's. I'll send you link to Guns International and Simpson's

 

[Marblekonus]

"FERLACH #13529, Model Prima Flussstahl, 16 x 65, 9.3 x 72R."
Suhl!!
Prima Flussstahl, Krupp Essen.